i noticed a bunch ista message..pm..for whatever reaSon my phone wont kick that open..so ill have get those later..anyhow lunch time..You guys who i am pulling strings with go choke on it..the guys who actually have called me and emailed you guys have a super great day.
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Capacitance Hat's Don't add Audio
- Thread starter MrSuburban
- Start date
I replied to this when I clearly cited in the same section of the Handbook that the statement was about differences in the top sections of the full 90° whip and the shorter loaded whip.
The chapter is about Mobile and Marine Antennas - ch16, but the chapter is, at that point, not only talking about the differences in base loaded and center loaded and top loaded antennas, but directly refers to the full 90° whip and the center loaded antennas in the portion cited.
I believe there are good answers to all my questions, and I'm thankful for all the real effort folks are taking to answer me.
'let me check with mother nature as she controlsand your radiation agle at take off also... controls how your contacts arrive..
Yes, I'm just sure all of this publicity has peaked an interest in your antennas. Unfortunately those hits are not likely to transform into sales as a result of this tread. It's more likely people going there to see how what you advertise differs from reality.
yadee yadaa deerttee deerrtee...i know more about antenna building and design then i like to let out...it pisses you forum monkeys off thats the funny part.its great fun keeps you guys in front of that monitor trying your best get my goat..
Let's put the books aside Coily. i guarantee I have tested more antennas in real life than you ever copied. You have no understanding of theory and your test results and product show that. You think somehow if the MFJ reads low your antennas perform. I know how to run a lathe but Ill bet you can tell me I am doing something wrong, because it is in a book? Yes, when I read the book I didn't understand it but you have experiance doing it to know the book was right.
Honestly if you want to impress us with some knowledge make something that no one else has before. Otherwsie you are a glorifed lathe operator trying to make something thats a duck look like a rooster ...
Go have another beer and hit spell check because the way your responses are we can tell you have limited brain capacity in the antenna tech dept.
that translates into cell phone itty bitty buttons,...you can run a watt or a kw if skip condition are where you trying to make contacts..its hit and miss...thats why booty boy.could not see the differances.
OK, but what do atmospheric conditions have to do with an antenna's radiation lobes or "take-of angle"?
OK guys how about adding a whip on top of the cap hat?
Would that negate the effect that the cap hat has on shortened, base loaded antennas?
Would that negate the effect that the cap hat has on shortened, base loaded antennas?
You mean like this?
There's nothing wrong with adding a whip above the cap hat if it serves the purpose.
LOL funniest post in this thread yet. By your advertising schemes you dont know crap about antennas, from your forum posts you dont know crap about antennas. You are a decent machinist Ill give you that but kale's got you on that too.
You're not the first to try and make the argument that the bad publicly generated by proven theory debunking your design benefited your sales here. You're also not the first person to not be believed while claiming it.
ok, because i think Homer has a point, i think its only fair for me to lay out what my "beef" with MrCoily stems from.
its the slick AKA false advertising. He knows exactly what he is doing when it comes to how he words his ads, and the unsuspecting buyer; looking for any little edge in competition or everyday use, spends his hard earned money on something that doesnt do as well as something he could have bought for 20 bucks. (like a full size 1/4 wave radiator)
for example, here are a few quotes from MRCoily's site:
"Capacitance hat - This is a device sometimes found at the end of an element. It can be a cross, a disk, a ball, a loop, or just about anything conductive. It makes the element behave as if it is longer, maybe 10%-30% longer than it really is. It can save space with Gains in performance!"
"Forcing more signal/audio up top also adding exceptional recieve"
"Audio Ball design provides increased receive and added performance"
MrCoily knows full well that his antenna is a compromise in comparison to a full sized 1/4 wave radiator, but trys to make it seem as if his designs are actually increasing the performance over that of a full sized 1/4 wave radiator, instead of lessening the compromise, which is all they are doing.
MrCoily, if you will post here in this thread that your loaded antenna would have to defy the laws of physics to outperform a full sized 1/4 wave radiator when all other conditions are taken as being equal, then i will drop it.
until then, you are either uninformed or a liar. take your pick.
if you are just uninformed, please read on. (Homer, this is my take on what you and shockwave are discussing)
(all taken from the ARRL handbook, since that seems to be the reference we are already using)
this section refers to the 10 meter band because it contends that its the only band for which a full size 1/4 wave whip antenna would be feasibly mounted on a vehicle.
"with the whip adjusted to resonance in the 10-meter band, the impedance at the feedpoint will appear as a pure resistance at the resonant frequency.
This resistance will be composed almost entirely of radiation resistance, and the efficiency will be high.
However, at frequencies lower than the resonant frequency, the antenna will show an increasingly large capacitive reactance and a decreasingly small radiation resistance."
this means that when the antenna is shorter than a full sized 1/4 wave radiator on its intended frequency, the reactance increases, thereby reducing efficiency.
"the capacitive reactance can be canceled out by connecting an equivalent inductive reactance in series, thus tuning the system to resonance.
Unfortunately, ALL COILS HAVE RESISTANCE, and this resistance will be added in series. While a large coil may radiate some energy, thus adding to the radiation resistance, the latter will usually be negligible compared to the loss resistance introduced, however, adding the coil makes it possible to feed power to the circuit."
now here is where MrCoily is, as i see it, intentionally misleading his potential buyers. This is all in reference to whips that are too short and need to be loaded with a coil to be brought to resonance.
"the radiation resistance of the whip can be approximately doubled by placing the loading coil at the center of the whip, rather than at the base.
HOWEVER, the inductance of the loading coil must be approximately doubled over the value required at the base to tune the system to resonance. For a coil of the same Q, the coil resistance will also be doubled."
Here is where MrCoily gets his claims about capacity hats. we must remember that all of this is in reference to antennas that are too short for the band they are operating on, and therefore must be loaded to be brought into resonance. LOADING ALWAYS CONSTITUTES A COMPROMISE!!!
"since the coil resistance varies with the inductance of the the loading coil, the coil resistance can be reduced by reducing the number of turns.
This can be done, while still maintaining resonance, by adding capacitance to the portion of the antenna above the coil. This capacitance can be provided by attaching a capacitive surface as high up on the antenna as is mechanically feasible.
Capacitive "hats", as they are usually called, may consist of a light-weight metal ball, cylinder, disk, or wheel structure. this should be added to the capacitance of the whip above the loading coil in determining the approximate inductance of the loading coil.
When center loading is used, the amount of capacitance to be added to permit the use of the same loading inductance required for base loading is not great, and should be seriously considered, since the total gain made by moving the coil to the center of the antenna may be quite marked."
I wouldnt be surprised to find out that MrCoily read the same section that i quoted and is basing his claims off of the facts that i presented.
in that sense, he has made a center loaded antenna that attempts to lessen the losses inherent in a loaded antenna to the greatest extent possible.
while that is a worthwhile endeavor, it will not ever equal or surpass the pure radiation resistance and efficiency provided by a full sized 1/4 wave radiator.
the thing is, he knows that as soon as he admits this, his sales begin to drop.
LC
its the slick AKA false advertising. He knows exactly what he is doing when it comes to how he words his ads, and the unsuspecting buyer; looking for any little edge in competition or everyday use, spends his hard earned money on something that doesnt do as well as something he could have bought for 20 bucks. (like a full size 1/4 wave radiator)
for example, here are a few quotes from MRCoily's site:
"Capacitance hat - This is a device sometimes found at the end of an element. It can be a cross, a disk, a ball, a loop, or just about anything conductive. It makes the element behave as if it is longer, maybe 10%-30% longer than it really is. It can save space with Gains in performance!"
"Forcing more signal/audio up top also adding exceptional recieve"
"Audio Ball design provides increased receive and added performance"
MrCoily knows full well that his antenna is a compromise in comparison to a full sized 1/4 wave radiator, but trys to make it seem as if his designs are actually increasing the performance over that of a full sized 1/4 wave radiator, instead of lessening the compromise, which is all they are doing.
MrCoily, if you will post here in this thread that your loaded antenna would have to defy the laws of physics to outperform a full sized 1/4 wave radiator when all other conditions are taken as being equal, then i will drop it.
until then, you are either uninformed or a liar. take your pick.
if you are just uninformed, please read on. (Homer, this is my take on what you and shockwave are discussing)
(all taken from the ARRL handbook, since that seems to be the reference we are already using)
this section refers to the 10 meter band because it contends that its the only band for which a full size 1/4 wave whip antenna would be feasibly mounted on a vehicle.
"with the whip adjusted to resonance in the 10-meter band, the impedance at the feedpoint will appear as a pure resistance at the resonant frequency.
This resistance will be composed almost entirely of radiation resistance, and the efficiency will be high.
However, at frequencies lower than the resonant frequency, the antenna will show an increasingly large capacitive reactance and a decreasingly small radiation resistance."
this means that when the antenna is shorter than a full sized 1/4 wave radiator on its intended frequency, the reactance increases, thereby reducing efficiency.
"the capacitive reactance can be canceled out by connecting an equivalent inductive reactance in series, thus tuning the system to resonance.
Unfortunately, ALL COILS HAVE RESISTANCE, and this resistance will be added in series. While a large coil may radiate some energy, thus adding to the radiation resistance, the latter will usually be negligible compared to the loss resistance introduced, however, adding the coil makes it possible to feed power to the circuit."
now here is where MrCoily is, as i see it, intentionally misleading his potential buyers. This is all in reference to whips that are too short and need to be loaded with a coil to be brought to resonance.
"the radiation resistance of the whip can be approximately doubled by placing the loading coil at the center of the whip, rather than at the base.
HOWEVER, the inductance of the loading coil must be approximately doubled over the value required at the base to tune the system to resonance. For a coil of the same Q, the coil resistance will also be doubled."
Here is where MrCoily gets his claims about capacity hats. we must remember that all of this is in reference to antennas that are too short for the band they are operating on, and therefore must be loaded to be brought into resonance. LOADING ALWAYS CONSTITUTES A COMPROMISE!!!
"since the coil resistance varies with the inductance of the the loading coil, the coil resistance can be reduced by reducing the number of turns.
This can be done, while still maintaining resonance, by adding capacitance to the portion of the antenna above the coil. This capacitance can be provided by attaching a capacitive surface as high up on the antenna as is mechanically feasible.
Capacitive "hats", as they are usually called, may consist of a light-weight metal ball, cylinder, disk, or wheel structure. this should be added to the capacitance of the whip above the loading coil in determining the approximate inductance of the loading coil.
When center loading is used, the amount of capacitance to be added to permit the use of the same loading inductance required for base loading is not great, and should be seriously considered, since the total gain made by moving the coil to the center of the antenna may be quite marked."
I wouldnt be surprised to find out that MrCoily read the same section that i quoted and is basing his claims off of the facts that i presented.
in that sense, he has made a center loaded antenna that attempts to lessen the losses inherent in a loaded antenna to the greatest extent possible.
while that is a worthwhile endeavor, it will not ever equal or surpass the pure radiation resistance and efficiency provided by a full sized 1/4 wave radiator.
the thing is, he knows that as soon as he admits this, his sales begin to drop.
LC
LooseCannon, another great post. What the hell did you eat today, your like butter on a roll.
Actually more like this, except with a 3 or 4 foot whip on top. (that's about as high as I can get without banging overpasses and such)
I am also going to redo the cap hat and put twice as many radials on it.
I'm still in the experimental stage.
I am also going to redo the cap hat and put twice as many radials on it.
I'm still in the experimental stage.