• You can now help support WorldwideDX when you shop on Amazon at no additional cost to you! Simply follow this Shop on Amazon link first and a portion of any purchase is sent to WorldwideDX to help with site costs.

IMAX2000 no GPK vs 1/2 wave Silver Rod

RadioDaze2.0

Member
Oct 31, 2015
86
34
18
Just running a few thoughts through my mind here about which antenna is the best performer for short DX sessions of a few hours when I do not have time to put an elaborate set up together. The obvious issue for my own situation is the Silver Rod is significantly shorter (18feet) and lighter meaning less hassle to erect for a static mobile station. However if I was to achieve "significantly better performance" and we can read that as a lower angle of radiation or 1dB gain approx then I would make efforts to use the IMAX2000 (24 feet and heavy) despite being heavier and longer.

Both of these antennas are ok for lower height from ground mounting on poles where the Gain Master does not fair as well typically. The GM needs to really be 1/2 wave above ground before it seems to work well.

I think if I am correct as theory would dictate these 2 antennas both without any ground plane attached should be about the same gain. We always hear the 5/8th wave has a little gain over the 1/2 wave but unless set up in perfect conditions with symetrical 1/4 wave ground planes up and away from the ground and other objects it is rarely realized over average soil.

Does this reasoning seem correct?

As an aside the IMAX never presents a VSWR lower than 1.5:1 in fact more commonly 1.7:1

I am not really happy about that and wonder if I need to in fact trim the antenna for 27.5 operation. Those tuning rings seem to be ineffectual. They may as well not be there !

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

It often comes down to an IMAX2K at 3M or a Silver Rod at 4.5M and I tend at the moment to favour the Silver Rod as the SWR is lower and I can generally get it higher. Does this reasoning seem to parallel theory regarding performance of these 2 antennas ?
 

RD, I'm going out on a limb here, but I think your mobile static install being so low to the Earth and the antennas having no radials...I believe the end fed SR 1/2 wave would be the best choice all around.

Reason is I think the Imax being a 5/8 wave without radials seems to suffer when close to the Earth.

I have no real world experience with this idea, but I seem to recall this is what my models might indicate at 12' - 15' feet to the feed point, and with no radials for both antennas as I suspect you do with your mobile static setups.

I will check this out later today and let you know if I'm right or wrong. If I forget...please remind me of my promise.
 
I would go with the silver rod at the higher elevation off the ground. Tnis will lead to less effect from the ground and most likely present a better vswr as indicated by yourself as far as static mobiles go. I would think as long as the tip heights are the same or near and the base of antenna is actually further off the ground, the SD may perform better than the IMAX 2000. I've never used either, but just reading over your post I would tnink that the SD would be the better choice all around for a static mobile setup for ease of setup and achievable height to base vs the IMAX 2000. I could be absolutely wrong but I think o am on the right track(n);).
 
RD, here are my Eznec results of the Imax at 11' feet vs. the Silver Rod at 18' feet. I don't think this difference is detectable just using your radio.

As a note the S/R is 2' feet higher at the tip than the Imax. I used your suggested heights.

I also tend to believe that my vertical CB antennas that are close to the same tip height will also produce close to the same gain, angle, and signal.

I think all around you will be better of with the Silver Rod, but if you can test them both, then report to us your results.
 

Attachments

  • IMG.pdf
    231.6 KB · Views: 18
  • Like
Reactions: 222DBFL
Thanks for all replies especially the comprehensive modelling one from Marconi. It is much appreciated and hat's off to your willingness to help.

This seems to fall into line with my findings. I do not seem to get anything better from the IMAX than the 1/2 wave other than more weight. They both work similarly in my testing, the SR is extremely light making it very easy to set up for just a 2 hour session. The Gain Master goes up when I am out for the day.

Thanks again.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 222DBFL
Marconi has been a big help to me as well RD. I value his words highly!! And I beleive the SR, like you stated will be easier to setup when it's cold as heck out and you don't want to mess about much for a short session. And I want to ask as well just out of curiousitiy, does this setup work better than just a good mobile setup would in your vehicle. Good hard mount, coax, antenna, and so forth? I've found that in certain places with my mobile, especially near the water here, that my mobile would out talk most base stations with little effort. Granted my work van was tall @ approx 9ft to the roof, plus the sirio 5000 performer and the PL145 mag mount. Granted I am going to near the ocean, to a river system called the Intercoastal Waterway thst goes from Miami, FL to NY, and is made up of salt water. It lies just between the beach and the mainland. About 1/2-1 mile from ocean. But at any rate I just wondered if all the trouble of setting up a static mobile vs. just a regular mobile setup is truly worth the effort??
 
However if I was to achieve "significantly better performance" and we can read that as a lower angle of radiation or 1dB gain approx then I would make efforts to use the IMAX2000 (24 feet and heavy) despite being heavier and longer.
?

A difference of 1dB gain would not be noticeable by the receiving station and even 3dB is barely noticable.

222DBFL.....the height of the tips being the same only matters when the antenna current maximum is highest at that point of the antenna. The tips being the same height doesn't make an antenna perform the same as another on either TX or RX. It is something I wouldn't take into consideration at all unless using a capacity hat. The top 25% of most antennas does very little at all in comparison to the mid and base sections.
 
Got it M0GVZ. Also what I was asking about was the difference in performance using the static mobile setup VS. a standard mobile 1/4 wave antenna setup, and whether it's actually worth the effort when you're dxing. For local use I can understand, but for dxing I was just curious as to how much of a gain is to be had by using a static setup VS. the standard hard mounted antenna setup. Like I said before and even in the post I made, I'm no antenna expert and don't claim to be. My knowledges on this subject is limited to only my own experiences and some others that I have helped installed antennas for as well. At any rate, thanks for clearing that up for me, and it helps me learn and understand. I have learned much from this forum and do appreciate all input!! Now off to work. Have a great day to all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RadioDaze2.0
"The top 25% of most antennas does very little at all in comparison to the mid and base sections."

It makes the antenna usable I would of thought (VSWR), that is pretty important ; )


@222DBFL

Well it is a curious thing... I have a Sirio HP4000 mag mount antenna and I have made a few European DX contacts with it on 15Watts radio power to the tune of about 1,000 miles into I think if I recall Slovakia or Czech Republic maybe... the details escape me, anyway it was about 1,000 miles. Other than that I have not faired particularly well. It certainly does not hear any where near as good as a silver rod on a pole. Not even close. And we are talking multiple S points, not dB's. I would educated guess 3-4 S-points in practice on the RX side coupled with the pole clearance from earth. That is clearly audible in RX noise floor alone. It simply picks up more of everything... it is a vastly superior antenna system for the RX side.

I hear a few people saying they can work 10,000 miles using a mag mount. I have no doubt that has happened.

So we can say if you have exceptional conditions you can work the work using a mobile mag mount.

I do not currently have a "through hole" capability and as I gather this means you are kind of limited to around 100W before the capacitive coupling becomes less effective with associated problems. So there is 1 immediate limitation.

You see when I go out there are 2 set ups I use.

No compromise (full day) performance omni station using Gain Master at 7.5 meters height and around 150-250M ASL and about 170W PEP

And the Silver Rod "quick set up" at around 4.5M height. This is a perfectly quick and easy set up with the same power.

Given you can work the entire planet DX wise on a 1/4 wave whip or less on the top of a car why does anyone bother with any other antenna ?

My own personal reasoning is because conditions are mainly far from optimal right now, we are on the down stroke from the 11 year cycle. By using the Gain Master IMO the best vertical mono pole DX antenna out there (for my specific set up situation) I stack the odds in my favour of filling in the log book in only moderate conditions or even weak conditions.

That is the reason. I also believe if you wish to give an S1-S3 13,300 miles away which I did long path to NZ recently that you need that very low radiation angle that such an antenna provides. (and I am not on a GM is the only and best antenna crusade, clearly other antennas and the system (ground conditions, radials, height, pole, coax, grounding, local geography etc.) they are employed can be equally as good.

Now we know chance is part of the game on 10-11m. I want to make sure that when luck is on my side that I am in with the absolute best chance possible.

Maybe I could have spoke to NZ with a Silver Rod, maybe I would not have been heard. Maybe my lobe at a 4 degree take off got through and the SR or a mobile antenna would not have output sufficient energy at that angle to get through.

Or maybe not !

It is about hedging bets. I read again and again and again the GM is the best vertical DX antenna. I am glad I did not ignore it because by and large and without guarantee or detailed evidence from a lab I would have to concur.

Once you have spoke around the entire world on an omni on 10/11m (the long way) there is not much left to do. Of course there is.... if you wish but for myself that is one major goal achieved as I now have solid evidence I can talk anywhere the conditions will allow me to. You can hear that from others but till you experience it it is not a reality/ a tangible experience.

Now of course the guy at the other end had a beam and this is a very significant factor, but I have no more control over that than the conditions of the F2 layer themselves.

I can choose how to operate my end and stack odds in my favour.

------------------------------------

Salt water is like radio turbo juice. I have understood this in theory and in practice as a station not far from me hears greatly more than I using an IMAX. He could use a silver rod and it would probably be similar. Salt water is the exception and not the rule that applies to most operators.

I did not think that being on a hill helped with DXing until I read about the affect of being on a hill on your lowest lobe.

In simple terms (best for me !) the first reflected wave from the earths surface does not have such a negative influence on your low angle performance as being on flat earth (of similar quality). It seems being on a hill reduces the negative effect of out of phase destructive recombining of waves.

So the reflected wave from a sloping surface leave the lowest angle rays of radiation in tact more so than a reflected wave from flat land.

In effect it means your lowest angle ray is likely to be emitted at a lower angle than that of a "flat land" station on similar ground quality. (let's say "good")

This effect depends on the steepness of the slope, electrical qualities/skin resistance etc. of ground around you and is not easy to calculate as most hills are not exact uniform gradient slopes on either side and vary considerably.

I am going to guess something here. The geography of my location means there is water in most directions within 30-40miles... if I am at 170-250M I would hazard a guess that this is advantageous. I can hit close to a +30 signal 30 or so miles away at the coast, from there the signal has no obstacles (no hills in the way). That has to be a good thing as it means unimpeded RF energy is getting to the sea at 3 poles of the compass.

Now I think the edge of my understanding is reached as I think for salt water to have a positive effect on RX and TX signals it is in the first 100 wavelengths distance or so that is critical to keep the Pseudo Brewster Angle below 1 degree which means ALL reflected energy is in phase with your direct wave. This is why it is like magic for radio waves, greatly increasing both TX and RX signals.

The beauty of radio is the technical scientific aspect and the in practice results and integration of what is happening in ones mind given the sky we can see and understanding of the atmospheric layers above us. I think the aspect of visualizing what is happening has helped me make better operational decisions even if they were not scientific on my behalf. (Though they clearly were for those at Sirio designing the Gain Master)

It is immensely fascinating.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 222DBFL
Current maxima of none loaded antennas is always 1/4wave down from the tip,
The extra gain of a 5/8 over 1/2 wave is due to the tip & consequently current maxima been higher above ground,

It is also easier to make low loss matching setups for 5/8waves, nobody that I have seen makes a 1/2wave end-fed with a low loss matching setup,

A 1/2wave with an equal loss matching setup placed at the same tip height as a 5/8wave produces a little more low angle gain than a 5/8wave, The 5/8 magic disappears,

There is nothing special about a 5/8wave with its 1/8wave of out of phase radiation in the lower part of the antenna.
Its just the longest you can stretch a single element without the out of phase radiation in the lower portion spoiling the low angle radiation pattern,

Its what marconi has been telling us for years,
There should be very little to no detectable difference between the silver rod & imax when both are mounted at the same tip height unless one of them is faulty.
 
222 - Using a static A99 @ ~13 feet to the feed I see about 1-2 S-Units gain on receive over a Tram mag-mount which sits on top of my full size Chevy quad cab. If I am out in the woods playing radio for a while, the 10 minutes it takes to set it up is well worth the effort.

Edit: changed DB to S-units
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 222DBFL
222 - Using a static A99 @ ~13 feet to the feed I see about 1-2 DB gain on receive over a Tram mag-mount which sits on top of my full size Chevy quad cab. If I am out in the woods playing radio for a while, the 10 minutes it takes to set it up is well worth the effort.

Interesting observation, just 1-2dB. I have always seen much greater differences, even between an almost 1/4 wave Sirio HP 4000PL whip 2035 mm long (albeit magnetically coupled).

The moment I switch I immediately hear a huge difference between the 4000. The difference between T5 sounding dead and being alive with S1-S4 stations.

I have not used the Mag mount since. (only on 1 rare occasion joining a net when on holiday in another part of the UK)

Without question the 5 mins taken to run coax and set the 1/2 wave Silver Rod up is time very well invested in my on experienced on hill tops.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 222DBFL
I'll add a few additional details - the Tram 3500 sitting on my nice large quad cab roof works very well for me. I can get through on CH38 LSB from 28ft in my driveway.
The comparisons are from an elevation of 3400 ft (and there is very little higher for miles), and there is no man made interference as it is in a remote location. Additionally, I am basing this off a digital meter so accurate "units" is ambiguous at best (and I am probably being conservative).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 222DBFL

dxChat
Help Users
  • No one is chatting at the moment.
  • @ Wildcat27:
    Hello I have a old school 2950 receives great on all modes and transmits great on AM but no transmit on SSB. Does anyone have any idea?
  • @ ButtFuzz:
    Good evening from Sunny Salem! What’s shaking?
  • dxBot:
    63Sprint has left the room.
  • dxBot:
    kennyjames 0151 has left the room.