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Like info on number of wraps needed to make "Ugly Balun" using 8x Coax

A choke/balun for a mobile?
Why?
Learning......Just want to try everything, be it from base antenna, to the mobile antenna school of thought. I know mobile is a BIG compromise, all the way around.
I know in the books it may be one way, sometimes it's not real world. so why not try everything I can come up with from help and reading, try to find my best, and use that. It's fun.
 
What do you mean by playing games? Learning how to match impedance's is a valuable lesson may be you should learn too.

Trimming down the antenna will not bring this antenna feed point impedance to 50 ohms. Depending on where he want's the resonant point at, he may have to do so anyway.

Will it make a difference? not so much but the point is to get your hands dirty and learn something in the process.


what I meant by playing games was in reference to legal operation on the 11 meter band....and thanks for the insult...if he operates legal, on channels and with legal power... the added effort and expense is NOT going to be anything really noticeable by the folks on the receiving end... if he plays games, like additional power and a vfo over the band then I advised him to do as you suggested,
 
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what I meant by playing games was in reference to legal operation on the 11 meter band....and thanks for the insult...if he operates legal, on channels and with legal power... the added effort and expense is NOT going to be anything really noticeable by the folks on the receiving end... if he plays games, like additional power and a vfo over the band then I advised him to do as you suggested,
Sorry for the insult but it sounded like you were mocking my advice to the OP. Yes, just as I said the shunt coil will not back a big difference but it will bring the feed point to near 50 ohms at a given frequency since full size 1/4 wave whips are usually 37 ohms. This if anything is a good simple and inexpensive learning project and makes good use of an antenna analyzer.
 
Sorry for the insult but it sounded like you were mocking my advice to the OP. Yes, just as I said the shunt coil will not back a big difference but it will bring the feed point to near 50 ohms at a given frequency since full size 1/4 wave whips are usually 37 ohms. This if anything is a good simple and inexpensive learning project and makes good use of an antenna analyzer.

no problem, having reread my poorly worded post, I can understand how you felt that way..
no, your advice was good...
my first mobile was back in 1961, it was a heathkit lunch box 6 M....and i have had lots of radios and antennas since then...a low SWR does not mean the antenna is a good one, a match is desired, but a dummy load is a good match with low swr...you mentioned many other things that affect the actual loading and efficiency of an antenna and it was all solid...
Having used and installed many radios and antennas over the years I sort of know what to expect and what I need to do for the intended use...how much time and money I want to expend...and sometimes choose a compromise with all factors considered as long as the compromise gets done what i need done.
 
Learning......Just want to try everything, be it from base antenna, to the mobile antenna school of thought. I know mobile is a BIG compromise, all the way around.
I know in the books it may be one way, sometimes it's not real world. so why not try everything I can come up with from help and reading, try to find my best, and use that. It's fun.

absolutely it is fun... that is why there is an extra pulley and rope off my tower and why I keep lots of temporary poles to set up around the yard... I regularly build antennas to play with...and compare to one another... I have a box full of wire antennas that I keep... then come field day if I do not feel like a new project, I just pull out one of the antennas from the box, grab some poles and go play...
I have a go box with a radio, tuner, power supply, and batteries... with a regular charger and a set of solar chargers, so I am always ready to go... and if I have not decided which band I want to play on that day... I have built a multiband rotatable dipole, I take that and a tripod... I love having things to play with.
 
Your ugly air choke is going to be huge and take up a lot of space in your mobile. In a mobile application your better off either making a Balun with an Amidon 43 core or using 43 beads or passing many loops of your coax through 1-3 cores. Just depends on how much coax you want to burn through and how much space you have and what you have on had for ferrite cores. They have different make's and for what you want the 43 Alloy is what you want.

I would not put a choke at the radio or if you run an amplifier at the amplifier. Most people run 18 feet or less of coax in a mobile and if the coax is 50ohm and your 102" whip and your mounting system get it close electrically to 108" and you have a good ground common mode issues are not normally a problem for modern car's in terms of malfunctioning electronics and such. Now if you are driving one of the first VW bugs with fuel injection watch out!!! LOL What normally get's mobiles in trouble is not common mode issues so much as it is splatter box harmonics issues and no amount of chokes or Balun will fix that issue. Is your coax quality American made coax with properly installed Amphenol or like quality connectors installed properly? Have you checked for continuity?

I do not think I have ever had a problem with common mode issues in an mobile before.

Keep in mind that an ugly choke aka air choke still breaks the rule we where taught as kids about CB and not coiling up excess coax in a circle. Why? That choke will also cause some signal loss. Often when you want to stop something or transform something a coil is a good way to do it. Coils affect electric properties and dielectric properties at the same time. Every look at how simple a low pass filter is? Most of them that you buy for CB use are 3-5 coils and some cap's. Rotate a magnet in a wire coil and you get electricity. Sandwich two coils next to each other and toss in some high silicon steel here and there and we can do all kinds of crazy stuff.

My point is do not let the idea of a simple coil fool you. In electronics coils are one of the most often used shapes. They can be gate keepers or agents of change or a means to passively conduct a signal/energy safely from one part to another through induction. That is why spreading coils and such in a radio can reek so much trouble. So just keep in mind that coils can be your friend but they are not a free lunch and if you do not need it you have effectively done nothing to help your problem but have added in additional loss in the form of extra coax that was not needed + coiling it in a circle.

Make sure have common mode issues before you install a fix for common mode issues! It is kind of like giving yourself the vaccination against smallpox than walking into to a tent full of people dieing from Ebola that Smallpox vaccination did nothing for you against Ebola.

The impedance issue is not from the 102" vertical so much as it is from the missing ground plane elements. When attempting to tune an attenna design often they have to angle the ground plane doward to get the impedance to match up nice and pretty if they want to keep the design simple.

An air choke is not the best way to get impedance match that is like spitting into the wind. You will definitely need some 43 cores and some wire and connectors SO-239's. You should not need that much wire I would not use enameled wire I would use ptfe jacked wire of a much larger gauge than enamel wire is usual sold. Enamaled wire is a pain to work with anyone that has built a crystal radio knows what a pain it can be. Tape is your friend because the second you release tension the wires springs back away from the cores and goes every where. Heavier wire is stiffer and the PTFE also makes it stiffer. You still need some tape or small zip ties but it is no where near the headache that enameled wire is to work with.
 
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wow that last post was a long one but taught me something. When I took that extra length of coax on my mobile antenna and coiled around and zip tied it together I actually crated a choke. I did this to do something with all of that extra coax for a clean install.
 
Unless the roof of your vehicle is fiberglass or plastic, making/using a balun just isn't needed. The metal shell of the vehicle dictates that RF is going to flow over that surface and not get into you equipment inside.

I've had lightning strike about five feet from my vehicle, and was safe inside due to the Faraday's Cage effect. Same principle applies to RF. RF uses the sheet metal of the car to bounce waves off of.

So long as the excess coax you have is coiled inside, it isn't hurting anything either. Not really doing anything.
 
I do not think I have ever had a problem with common mode issues in an mobile before.

Make sure have common mode issues before you install a fix for common mode issues! It is kind of like giving yourself the vaccination against smallpox than walking into to a tent full of people dieing from Ebola that Smallpox vaccination did nothing for you against Ebola.

I have seen common mode issues in a mobile before. They come up more often when using a magnet mount antenna, or when using a mount that doesn't have enough metal under it, like mirror mounts. If you have a solid bolt on mount, you won't normally have these problems.

Remember the mostly dead (now) cb myth where people would tune their mobile antennas by cutting the length of coax? That only seemed to work because of common mode currents on the feed line. A whole myth's existence was dependent on common mode currents existing in a mobile environment...

Keep in mind that an ugly choke aka air choke still breaks the rule we where taught as kids about CB and not coiling up excess coax in a circle.

Air chokes don't really break those rules. If made properly, they will work well for the needed frequencies, what the rule in question was meant to warn against is randomly coiled wires.

Why? That choke will also cause some signal loss.

The air choke itself does not cause additional losses for the signals traveling inside the coax, except for the losses that the few feet of additional coax will naturally have (yea, you won't notice these losses as they are insignificant unless the coax is damaged). Think of it this way, the inside is a sealed system, and acts completely independently of the outside of the coax. The signal on the coax that is affected by the air choke is the signal traveling on the outside of the coax, aka, common mode currents.

An air choke is not the best way to get impedance match that is like spitting into the wind.

I agree with this statement. It takes more than a choke (if a choke is in fact needed) to get a match. The choke is, in and of itself, not part of the matching system, it simply prevents unwanted common mode currents. Tuning an antenna has requirements that go far beyond using a choke.

I think I should also add that a mobile environment is not the best place for an air choke. To often it will be right next to a metal surface, which will affect the choke, possibly making it less effective, and potentially useless. In these environments, if a choke is needed, I would highly recommend a ferrite based choke. Ferrite based chokes are not affected by the environment around them, like the sheet of metal they are inevitably next to. I would use them for all my RF choking needs as they are better in pretty much every way, shape, and form. They also don't cost any more than an air choke, and are often just as easy to make, although in many cases you do have to put a new end on the coax as well.


The DB
 
The problem I was having was fixed when I removed the 4in. Breadlove mount and sanded a little more to remove more paint on the underside of the cab roof. I also ran 4 banding straps from the mounts bolts (inside cab) to the 4 pillars of the cab front and rear inside of cab as the roof metal looks to be "glued" to the side metal of the cab, and the cab, bed, frame, ex. pipes, motor and radiator are all bonded.
But I have sold the truck and have goten a new ram truck and am just waiting on the weather to finish the new set up.
 

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