How To: Use crossband repeat legally on your base station  | | 
09-25-2009, 02:21 PM
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So you believe it is within the rules to TX on your HT all day long and never ID on that HT, as long as you have a completely separate base station that auto IDs every 10 minutes?
The HF station you describe is a single station with multiple antennas, not two completely separate stations. There are many common elements, such as the radio. But since you mention it, wouldn't that also violate your premiss that the ID is "for the purpose of clearly making the source of the transmissions from the station known to those receiving the transmissions." Thus, changing to a different antenna with a different forward direction would violate the purpose for the ID. |
09-26-2009, 11:52 AM
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Quote: |
So you believe it is within the rules to TX on your HT all day long and never ID on that HT, as long as you have a completely separate base station that auto IDs every 10 minutes?
| If you with your HT and your base operating at the same location, then yes as long as it's being done on all the frequencies in use. This is exactly the reason why some of the newer crossband repeat rigs started coming with the ability to auto-id on both bands. The rules don't say that you have to ID using every radio/antenna/piece of equipment that you operate on at the station. It says that the Control Op must ID on every frequency in use and you can do it using CW or whatever other mode you're using. The distinction that you're making is that you believe that your HT is a self contained station separate from the base. I'm saying that when you set it up like I have described, it is now a single, integrated system and as long as long as you're within a distance that you can easily control both rigs in use, you are at the station control.  |
09-27-2009, 02:47 PM
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Every transmitter transmission under your control must be identified with your call sign per 97.119 (a) unless it qualifies as a Part 15 device.  |
09-27-2009, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AE7RS  Every transmitter transmission under your control must be identified with your call sign per 97.119 (a) unless it qualifies as a Part 15 device. | Wait a minute...the horse is alive!
Moleculo's angle seems to be that his HT and Base station constitute ONE "station."
But I read that his repeater is a station and his HT is another, different station.
Another one of Moleculo's angle seems to be that, regardless if he is using one station or 10 stations, he only needs to ID his communications on any one of the stations that provide equal or greater coverage than all of the others.
The rules leave quite a bit of room for interpretation and I'm sure nothing would ever come of it given the way the system is being operated. Who would ever know one way or another unless they really rolled up their sleeves and did some real investigation. Even at that, the most likely outcome would be a clarification of the rules. |
09-27-2009, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AE7RS Every transmitter transmission under your control must be identified with your call sign per 97.119 (a) unless it qualifies as a Part 15 device. |
That's not what 97.119(a) says. It says, "each station", not "each transmitter". And I already quoted the part where it defines an "amateur station" - it's defined as all of the "apparatus necessary for carrying on radiocommunications". By that definition, "station" includes the coax, mic, key, power supply, antenna, computer, transceiver, etc.
I agree with C2...the rules are (in)sufficiently worded such that it leaves quite a bit of room for interpretation. |
09-28-2009, 05:28 AM
| | Junior Member | | Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Rocky Mountains
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C2 Wait a minute...the horse is alive!
Moleculo's angle seems to be that his HT and Base station constitute ONE "station."
But I read that his repeater is a station and his HT is another, different station.
Another one of Moleculo's angle seems to be that, regardless if he is using one station or 10 stations, he only needs to ID his communications on any one of the stations that provide equal or greater coverage than all of the others.
The rules leave quite a bit of room for interpretation and I'm sure nothing would ever come of it given the way the system is being operated. Who would ever know one way or another unless they really rolled up their sleeves and did some real investigation. Even at that, the most likely outcome would be a clarification of the rules. |
I really don't see any room for interpretation. Every transmitter's RF transmission under your control must be identified. End of debate.
If I use a VHF/ uhf/shf link to control or send audio to an HF rig the link frequency in use must be identified per 97.119 (a) (voice, cw, etc)
A person (or the FCC) listening to my VHF/ UHF/SHF link frequency will expect to hear an ID on that frequency. Pretty straightforward stuff here. 
The FCC a long time ago established that EACH transmitter is a station.
to reiterate ...
97.119 (a) Each amateur station, except a space station or telecommand station, must transmit its assigned call sign on its transmitting channel at the end of each communication, and at least every 10 minutes during a communication, for the purpose of clearly making the source of the transmissions from the station known to those receiving the transmissions. No station may transmit unidentified communications or signals, or transmit as the station call sign, any call sign not authorized to the station.
Last edited by AE7RS; 09-28-2009 at 06:11 AM.
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09-28-2009, 12:06 PM
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It's not the end of debate, because the rules don't say "each transmitter". You are adding that in there. Nowhere does it say, "Every transmitter's RF transmission under your control must be identified." It says, " each amateur station". It even has a clear definition of the term "amateur station" which you are conveniently ignoring to make your case that "station" = "transmitter". They clearly do not mean the same thing and are not used interchangeably anywhere within these rules. I have already described how the "source of the transmissions from the station" can be handled under this scenario.
We're talking about a scenario where the "amatuer station", which is clearly defined by in Part 97 as, "...consisting of the apparatus necessary for carrying on radiocommunications", is being operate in a manner that the source of the transmissions - the station from which those transmissions are eminating - is being clearly known to those receiving the transmissions.
You cannot substitute the word "transmitter" for "station". If the FCC wanted to use the word "transmitter" in their definition of "amateur station", they would have done so. But they didn't and that word is nowhere to be found in the definition. Quote: |
A person (or the FCC) listening to my VHF/UHF/SHF link frequency will expect to hear an ID on that frequency. Pretty straightforward stuff here.
| Yep, and I've shown how you can do that. No argument there. Every monitoring station will hear an ID on each frequency in use. Quote: |
The FCC a long time ago established that EACH transmitter is a station.
| Oh really? It doesn't say that in Part 97 anywhere. So if it doesn't say it in Part 97, then the only way it is "law" is if there is case law established by a court. If you can show me record case law, then I will recant. Remember, just a "clarifying statement" issued by the FCC is not case law and is meaningless in court. It hast to be in Part 97 or it has to be case law.
As they say in Missouri...show me. |
09-28-2009, 01:19 PM
| | Junior Member | | Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: 60 Mi S. Houston,Texas
Posts: 13
| |  CRossband ID ing
Quote:
Originally Posted by moleculo It's not the end of debate, because the rules don't say "each transmitter". You are adding that in there. Nowhere does it say, "Every transmitter's RF transmission under your control must be identified." It says, " each amateur station". It even has a clear definition of the term "amateur station" which you are conveniently ignoring to make your case that "station" = "transmitter". They clearly do not mean the same thing and are not used interchangeably anywhere within these rules. I have already described how the "source of the transmissions from the station" can be handled under this scenario.
We're talking about a scenario where the "amatuer station", which is clearly defined by in Part 97 as, "...consisting of the apparatus necessary for carrying on radiocommunications", is being operate in a manner that the source of the transmissions - the station from which those transmissions are eminating - is being clearly known to those receiving the transmissions.
You cannot substitute the word "transmitter" for "station". If the FCC wanted to use the word "transmitter" in their definition of "amateur station", they would have done so. But they didn't and that word is nowhere to be found in the definition.
Yep, and I've shown how you can do that. No argument there. Every monitoring station will hear an ID on each frequency in use.
Oh really? It doesn't say that in Part 97 anywhere. So if it doesn't say it in Part 97, then the only way it is "law" is if there is case law established by a court. If you can show me record case law, then I will recant. Remember, just a "clarifying statement" issued by the FCC is not case law and is meaningless in court. It hast to be in Part 97 or it has to be case law.
As they say in Missouri...show me. | And if you do put a cw or voice id on your crossband setup and it shows up on the repeater you are using. That opens up a big ole can of worms with the repeater owner. Can you imagine listening to a repeater with 3 or 4 stations crossbanding to it all with id's . The trustee would run you out of town, well maybee just his repeater. Food for thought.
RCB |
09-28-2009, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regencycb And if you do put a cw or voice id on your crossband setup and it shows up on the repeater you are using. That opens up a big ole can of worms with the repeater owner. Can you imagine listening to a repeater with 3 or 4 stations crossbanding to it all with id's . The trustee would run you out of town, well maybee just his repeater. Food for thought.
RCB | If you put an auto id on your "private" (440mhz typically) side, it won't key the repeater. Lots of stations put auto-cw iders on their station that are using repeaters...I hear it all the time. It's annoying, but I hear it. Personally I don't like trying to talk to someone while the auto CW ider is going off. But, it's legal because it's always legal to ID using CW. |
09-29-2009, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moleculo That's not what 97.119(a) says. It says, "each station", not "each transmitter". And I already quoted the part where it defines an "amateur station" - it's defined as all of the "apparatus necessary for carrying on radiocommunications". By that definition, "station" includes the coax, mic, key, power supply, antenna, computer, transceiver, etc. |
you left some things off the list...
it also includes the main club repeater up on the hill and all the other club member's transmitters, for all of this apparatus is necessary for carrying on radiocommunications.
where are you going to logically draw boundaries around such an open ended definition? That is all rhetorical...
I've also seen the argument where some claim that repeaters don't need to ID.
BTW, Moleculo, I see your station as the HT and your x-band repeater as a repeater, two separately defined terms. Quote: |
(39) Repeater. An amateur station that simultaneously retransmits the transmission of another amateur station on a different channel or channels.
| A repeater is an amateur station, not part of an amateur station; your HT is the "other station" of which the repeater retransmits its transmission.
Why don't you just switch your HT over to 2m every 10 mins and ID into your x-band repeater and be legal? | | |
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