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question about the FCC's description of a "cb transmitter"

loosecannon

Sr. Member
Mar 9, 2006
4,420
4,073
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hi all,

someone correct me if i am wrong here (like you wouldnt LOL), but isnt there a bit of a double standard occurring in the descriptions of what radios are considered to be CB type transmitters and which ones are considered to be ARS type transmitters?

this is from the FCC website. these are their words:

On
May 13, 1996, the Commission's Office of Engineering and
Technology (``OET'') released a Public Notice ``to clarify the
Commission's Rules regarding equipment that is intended to
operate in various radio services in the high frequency radio
spectrum, including '10-Meter' Amateur Radio Service (ARS)
equipment.''9 The Notice stated that transmitters intended for
operation on non-amateur frequencies must be approved prior to
manufacture, importation or marketing. The Notice specifically
included ARS transceivers designed ``such that they can easily be
modified by the users to extend the operating frequency range
into the frequency bands'' of the CB and other non-amateur radio
services among those devices subject to equipment authorization
procedures. The Notice also stated that the Commission considers
these transceivers as intended to be operated on frequencies
where the use of type accepted equipment is required ``because of
the simplicity of modifying them to extend their operating
frequency range.''10 The Commission's Office of General Counsel
(``OGC'') later released a letter on the importation and
marketing of ARS transmitters, which clarified that such
transmitters that ``have a built-in capability to operate on CB
frequencies and can easily be altered to activate that
capability, such as by moving or removing a jumper plug or
cutting a single wire'' fall within the definition of ``CB
transmitter'' under Section 95.603(c) of the Rules and therefore
require certification prior to marketing or importation.11



now,just about every 160-10 meter ham transceiver made in the last 20 years (even longer im sure) is VERY easily modified to work on CB and other illegal frequencies.

most are as easy as clipping a wire, cutting a diode or two, and some even have a switch provided for the purpose.

by the FCC's own wording; dont these radios fall into the category of a radio that needs to be type certified by the FCC?

yes, i realize that i am picking things apart, somewhat intentionally misunderstanding what was intended by their statements, but this isnt church; its politics, and in politics; its all about how the law is worded.
thats how our country works.

so, maybe im not going to petition the FCC to re-word this statement, as i am not a lawyer, and would probably have my a$$ immediately handed to me by someone that knows all the ins and outs of it.

BUT!

maybe i could go to ebay, and convince them to stop selling ham transceivers because they are easily modded to be high powered CB radios.

would that make me any different than "electrician1969" and the rest of the hams that are flexing their radio muscles on ebay?


these are just questions folks.
if they make you angry, just turn the knob on the left until it goes click.
hmmmmm........
LC
 

I think my Icom is "converted" by clipping one diode.

No more difficult than doing it to an export.

The thing in a amatuer radio that helps, it can be used in MARS/CAP service.
 
It goes beyond what constitutes and distinguishes between CB transmitters and amateur. Specifically, Part 95 states that one must use ONLY a 4-watt-40 channel CB radio that has a certification number and sticker. Each channel is pre-set at the factory to SPECIFIC frequencies. The radios must NOT be modified in any way. The onslaught of the so-called "10 Meter 'amateur'" radio with "bands" of channels and quick modification made FCC realize that revisions in the rules had to be made.
So they took care of any ambiguity by listing EACH radio that they did not want sold in the US on a list prohibiting their sale. By the legal definition, if anything, it is the "bands" of channels that allows FCC to say NO to the "export" radios in country. Why? Because it does NOT take 6 bands of "channels" to cover the CB band. There are 40, specifically set at the factory.

By the same token, various manufacturers also use the SAME chassis for commercial VHF and UHF FM radios, permitting a variety of users to purchase radios that are certified for use in their own service. This cuts down on cost. If radio users had to purchase different and separate radio chassis rather than being able to use basically the same one, it could be prohibitively expensive. Furthermore, the professional radio users AND the licensed amateurs do not create the problems that the CB operators do because they don't have this penchant for being the rebel, or violating the law. IOW, they generally have more to lose than do the CB guys. It is only the 11 Meter types that seem to create the most headaches with splattering amplifiers, illegal radios, and so-called "extra" channels that they don't legally have any right to. So that's why FCC pays more attention to that, and is generally less lenient towards the equipment.

Let's also clear up something. The "CAP" thing. Without giving up too much info, FCC has NO jurisdiction over CAP. And their frequencies are not limited to that area below CB. Their equipment is required to be compliant with something called NTIA (National Telecommunications & Information Authority). They are US Air Force and range over a wide area of HF. Getting on THEIR frequencies is a NO NO, and it will cause an interloper not only to get FCC after him, but also USAF Frequency Management as well. The CAP/USAF folks are NOT amused at finding an interloper on their frequencies because their operations are NOT a "game" or a "toy". It often involves support for air search operations or rescue (Look up the search for Steve Fossett who went mysteriously missing last year). On 9/11, the military was the only planes allowed to fly.....AND Civil Air Patrol.
They took the air survey photos of the World Trade Center. Messing with THEIR communications will get the same result as putting in a marine radio and using it for a CB:thumbdown:. The Coast Guard gets REALLY grumpy about that!:angry:

CWM
 
If you are going to spout all this "CW" at least get the watts right, 4 watt carrier at 100% modulation is legal! I still see HAMs using the 5 watt input = 3.2 watts RF out. Its 7 watts input and 4 watts out now, O.F. ;0 :)
 
HF transceivers need to be modifiable for legitimate use in other communications services beyond basic amateur coverage. MARS/SHARES are examples. Also in the example of both of my rigs, neither one was around when 60m was opened, so they had to be modified for that.

What they are going for are the 'export' radios that are not so cleverly designed to work free band and are sold at a dime a dozen price as so called 10m radios. Their specs alone show they aren't suitable as an amateur device, so trying to define this is a crazy waste of time...but here they go.
 
Specifically, Part 95 states that one must use ONLY a 4-watt-40 channel CB radio that has a certification number and sticker. (quote)
********************************************************

See above. Nothing technically wrong with what I said. After all, if the radio is not monkeyed with a ala Mr. Joe's CB Parlor and Export Emporium, it's gonna be doing 4 watts. WHERE did I say anything about "5" watts?
:D


CWM
 
The question in the first post concerned why those older radios could be easily converted for use on the CB band, and were legal. The answer is that they were type accepted by the FCC, and their primary use was in the amateur bands.
- 'Doc
 
The original question is what makes an HF radio (from kenwood, icom, yaesu etc) any less or more of a "CB transmitter" than a 10 meter radio made by ranger, galaxy, cobra etc.

CW-morse has conviently bypassed the thread starting question.
 
And the answer is type acceptance. Simple.
- 'Doc

What isn't so simple is the procedure that has to be followed to get that type acceptance...not cheap either.
 
And the answer is type acceptance. Simple.
- 'Doc

What isn't so simple is the procedure that has to be followed to get that type acceptance...not cheap either.


licensed amateurs are not required to use type accepted equipment so I still don't see the exact difference
 
dudmuck has it right,
that is what i am asking about.

specifically, i am asking about the so called "ebay police" that flag any radio that does more than 40 channels, while any joe blow can buy a ham rig from them, and operate the exact same freqs. at even higher power levels than many export radios.

im talking about a level playing field here folks.
im not talking about radios that are not in this country yet, i am talking about the radios that are already here.

so, to have a level playing field; shouldnt the hams that are selling HF transceivers on ebay have to get proof that the buyer is a licensed ham, and since that proof cant really legally be confirmed on each sale, shouldnt ebay ban the sale of HF transceivers too?

i mean, the end result is the same no matter whether the unlicensed buyer buys an export or a ham radio, he is still doing the same things with it.

so, CW did answer my first question about the double standard, and his answer does make sense.
however, the point im trying to make is not just about the FCC, its about ebay too.
LC
 
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hmm, thats weird, the thread title shows two pages, but clicking the second page takes you to the first.
maybe someone posted and then removed it.
maybe someone removed it for them.LOL j/k

this topic seemed hot a day or two ago, now no one cares.
did i hit a nerve?

probably not...

i may not know the answers, but there does seem to be a bit of a double standard going on on ebay these days with regard to who is allowed to sell what to whom.

maybe i am wrong.
anyone?
LC
 
hi all,

someone correct me if i am wrong here (like you wouldnt LOL), but isnt there a bit of a double standard occurring in the descriptions of what radios are considered to be CB type transmitters and which ones are considered to be ARS type transmitters?

My opinion, for what it's worth.

Well...in a word, YES. It is a double standard.

However, the FCC uses a multi-pronged decision making process in determining a radio's exact classification, and (thankfully) it seems they place most weight on the question of intent. In other words, what's the most likely intended use for a given radio? Is it sold primarily as an amateur radio intended to be used on an amateur band OR a radio sold as an "amateur radio" and intended to be used on CB or freeband?

In other words, in the FCC's eyes, if it looks like a CB, and is sold to CB users, in a CB outlet, and can be modified to run on CB freqs, then probably it's a CB, regardless of manufacturer claims to the otherwise.

Now that being said, the "nightmare scenario" that I've talked about many times here is when the FCC goes into a truck stop and finds an ICOM 706 or some other bona fide amateur radio sitting alongside a Connex or Galaxy or whatever. What then???

I think at that point the FCC would have to clarify their rules and remove the "blanket" radio classification scheme that is in effect now. In other words, they would have to say "We find that this particular (insert radio here) offered for sale on this date and this location falls under the definition of "CB transmitter" as set forth in the rules."

I think this would be good and equitable for everyone involved. Legitimate, legal use of these radios would be unimpeded, but the black market trafficking and use would still be prohibited.
 
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When the jumper in my Ranger 2950DX is moved to allow more than 10/12m operation it also enables the MAN button to access a band that shows up on the display as CH1-40 including the "a" channels. Now tell me that was not intentionally meant to be used as a CB radio. When I tune through 27 MHz on my FT-857 all the display shows is the freq,not channels.Another thing is that since ham radios do not need certification one can build one and put it on the air providing it meets certain emmission regulations. There is nothing preventing the builder from including 11m coverage if he was so inclined to do so but he would still not be legally able to use it there.Ham radios have pretty much always been able to be modified to cover outside the bands to cover MARS and CAP freqs as well as others. WHY? Because the hams have a history of actually being helpfull to these radio services and were granted the authority to use their own gear on those freqs, and ONLY those freqs. with the proper authorisation and training. The older ham band only radios only covered the ham bands +/- about 100 KHz or so but with the new solidstate broadband amps in the finals and full coverage receivers they ended up opening the entire range.I suppose the manufacturers could write a software program to allow just +/- 100 KHz or so on either side of the ham band but until the FCC says they have too they won't. BTW my Icom IC-735 came with the ability to TX +/- 100 KHz either side of the band but no more until a diode or two were clipped and then it opened the entire range INCLUDING the top end of the AM broadcast band.
 

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