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Single 4CX250B base amp for the masses!

Master Chief said:
I have the enclosures. I'm very aware of having to layout the components. BUT, what components do you buy?


...What your basically asking is "amp design 101, 202 and 303" all in one...

...Or, Electrical Engineering, with an emphasis on AC Circuit Amplification.



Let me ask this SIMPLE question and lets get ONE part right now; the large HV TRANSFORMER.

I need a transformer that will power two 4CX250B tubes. I want 120/240 primaries. What should the secondary voltage be, at what current, and why? 3500V? 4800V? 2400V @ 1.5 amps?


...Go to wikipedia and look up transformers. This was just gone over on another mailing list I frequent.

...Basically, you get 1.414 times the primary voltage, when using a cap input power supply (which is easiest, but not the best for AM/FM use). So, if you want 2200 volts unloaded (which is pretty much the standard for 250s), you need about 1600 volts on the primary. Since pwdahl gives you free taps, you get them with about 600 volts (works well for working on sweep tube amps), 1Kv (makes nice 811 boxes), etc. Your wire is rated for the current capability all around, so you have a nice multi-voltage supply that doesn't limit you to just powering this amp. I know you have other tubes there that are similiar, I'm trying to keep you from wasting money when you decide to sell / shelve this amp and go to one of the bigger tubes.


There have been discussion on the "weight" of the iron also. Remember, I need a power supply that can handle AM use, not a lower duty cycle SSB version.


...Yeah, weight. Your amp should weigh more than 50 pounds for every kilowatt of input.


Why would someone order a 60lb transformer over a 27lb transformer. I'm looking for the education and open discussion of ideas, not where to drill the holes and what bolts to use to mount it.


...Your core size (and material) helps to determine the flux density of the transformer. The > gauss, the greater amount of current the transformer can process from primary to secondary windings.

...Another thing about weight is, the heavier the transformer (in good design), the heavier the WIRE is that makes it up. We just went through all this on the other amplifier reflector, your a member there... Transformer design was discussed when we brought up the 63 pounder Rich used in his 14kw amp vs. the 243 pounder someone else uses in their 10 kw amps.

...Basically, the heavier the xformer, the more it can handle. You look at a pwdahlco catalog, and you will see a magic "thing" happening.. The transformers in different weight categories all have pretty much the same KVA rating. Pick the input your tube needs for the output (like, you need 140 percent of the wanted output for DC input, minimum)... Then add another 10 to 15 percent to that. That's how much mains power input you need to the plate.

2kw output = about 2800 watts of input.

2800 watts of input = about 3100 to 3300 watts of AC input to the power supply section.

3300 watts of input = 15 amps continuous... That's a 3.3kva power supply, a 3.3 kva xformer, etc. See how the math panned out?



You pick a tube and you spec out a transformer for the power supply; how do you choose?


...Go look above.



Just the first transformer please, no need to discuss what blower is needed at this point.


...Blowers are easy. It's the cooling design that Eimac / Svetlana / et al have REALLY screwed the pooch on. Tests on a 3CX6000 and a new cooling design showed an increase from 6000 watts of dissipation to 9800 watts of dissipation.. And this was ALL keeping within the SOA of the tubes :)

...That amp uses a 243 pound xformer, does 12 grand ALL DAY, and pulse tunes to > 17 thousand Pep.

--Toll_Free




Also, I own a number of Orr's "Radio Handbook". Which one of his publications are you referring to?!
 
Master Chief said:
The Pride has a reputation of being the "driver" of choice for the much larger amps out there, especially when converted to mono band operation (according to Nomad Radio).


I agree 110 percent.

Remove bandswitch and associated crap. Remove tank coil for all but 10 meters. Move tap on tank coil for 10 meter position about 3/4 of an inch. Optimizes it more for (upper) 11 meter and lower 10 operation, rather than 11 only amp.

Now you have a really UGLY hole in the front. No matter, here we go with another slick mod.

Remove input bandswitch, and retune it for 11 meters while your at it. I won't explain how, if you don't know, get out of your amp. Now, here's the trick part, remove the bias pot from the back, and put it in the place of the input bandswitch.. VOILA, instant changable bias, front panel control, monoband amp, etc.

DON'T do this for hillbilly joe's amp, or it will be killed quickly. I usually go farther and also put a Grid I meter in with the wattmeter.. This requires another scale, and the switch for the meter mounts in the back, where the bias knob used to be.

Bias knob adjustability is a MUST for the 6 guys using tubed exciters. Any variation in the drive level (especially carrier) must be taken into account, and this makes quick radio changes (from the Eagle to the Tram) easy.

Wanted to add an old mod of mine, if anyone is interested.


I think Black Ambassador still has the first one I did like this. Made it a two piece (seperate power supply) with a HUGE oil filled cap in it... Nice amp.


--Toll_Free
 
Toll_Free said:
The tube requires no more than 2000 volts on the plate so you need a transformer that has an AC secondary of 1350-1400 when using a capacitor type filter.


...Very true. RF Parts has a "stock" xformer.

BUT, the 250b's will take more voltage. I run them to about 2800, 3000 no load. They put out lots more suds, but you have to be more careful tuning them.

>True but why flirt with disaster. I prefer to believe the manufacturers specs.



The plate current would be around 500 mA for a pair of tubes when properly run but for AM service I suggest a current rating of 1 amp for the transformer.



...Properly run? In the CB service? Not highly likely.

Spec your xformer for .5A CCS, or near 1 amp ICAS. And I look at that as a minimum.

> That's what I said,1 amp



The screen supply should be around 350 volts so you need a transformer with an AC secondary of around 250 volts.


...This I don't agree with. You lose regulation using a transformer that has a lower secondary rating than the voltage level you wish to get.

...IE, do you use a 12 VAC secondary for a 13 volt power supply?

> 350 is a ballpark figure. You can go +/- a bit and yes a 12 vac sec is good for a 13 vDC power supply depending on the current. It will yeild 18 volts preregulator.I used a 15 vac sec on a 40 amp supply with no loss of regulation. A screen supply does not draw all that much current.

...You want the best you can get, when you homebrew something. You usually spend more than you would purchasing new or used equipment, so it's either to get something better than is commercially available, or because you get a hard on watching your plate current meter peg the 5A scale :)


I suggest you do not tap off the plate supply with dropping resistors for the screen supply. It can be done but is not a good idea for AM or SSB service where the plate current is rather dynamic as it will cause fluctions in the screen voltage.


...Agreed.


I suggest you start looking at places like RFparts or Surpluss Sales of Nebraska unless you want to pay top dollar from Peter Dahl for the iron you need.

...Peter Dahl has some transformers spec'ed out exactly for what he wants, for amps I and a couple others in San Diego built in the 80s. Think Mudshack, if you look in their catalog. That store didn't do the amps, but they where the front :)


Do you really need dual voltage primary BTW? And what about the 5 and 10% taps?? Are they really necessary as well?


...No, but they are free. When you order a xformer from Dahl, why NOT get freebies? You are paying top dollar, and getting the best your money can purchase.. Why NOT get something better?

> Assuming of course the xmfr's are bought from PW Dahl.

...And yes, they are necessary....

>Nice maybe. Necessary no.

Maybe a bit nice to have if being picky about setting voltages but the amp won't mind a bit of leeway.Generally big amateur amps and comercial stuff have a series of taps to compensate for local line voltage variations but they are far from necessary for homebrew projects.



...I don't see how something that is free isn't necessary or wanted for homebrew use.

>Again, assuming the supplier is PW Dahl.

To each his own.

> I agree. I prefer to run tubes within manufacturers spec. Others don't.I'll have more money in my pocket in the end. ;)

--Toll_Free[/quote]
 
QRN said:
Toll_Free said:
The tube requires no more than 2000 volts on the plate so you need a transformer that has an AC secondary of 1350-1400 when using a capacitor type filter.


...Very true. RF Parts has a "stock" xformer.

BUT, the 250b's will take more voltage. I run them to about 2800, 3000 no load. They put out lots more suds, but you have to be more careful tuning them.

>True but why flirt with disaster. I prefer to believe the manufacturers specs.

______________________________
..........Eimac rates the 250 for more plate voltage and plate current. The pulse rated and standard rated tubes have the same internal structures, just spaced slightly farther apart on the external side (anode is moved further away from the other elements on the outside, preventing arcing). This in no way harms the tube, when running it at higher voltages in ICAS use.
______________________________


The plate current would be around 500 mA for a pair of tubes when properly run but for AM service I suggest a current rating of 1 amp for the transformer.



...Properly run? In the CB service? Not highly likely.

Spec your xformer for .5A CCS, or near 1 amp ICAS. And I look at that as a minimum.

> That's what I said,1 amp



The screen supply should be around 350 volts so you need a transformer with an AC secondary of around 250 volts.


...This I don't agree with. You lose regulation using a transformer that has a lower secondary rating than the voltage level you wish to get.

...IE, do you use a 12 VAC secondary for a 13 volt power supply?

> 350 is a ballpark figure. You can go +/- a bit and yes a 12 vac sec is good for a 13 vDC power supply depending on the current. It will yeild 18 volts preregulator.I used a 15 vac sec on a 40 amp supply with no loss of regulation. A screen supply does not draw all that much current.

______________________________
lol. That's not 18 volts rms... Your rms voltage will be .9 times the transformer output, when rectified. That means a lot of filter C to ensure it never drops below what you want.

And if your going to argue against my point, don't back my point up. You are trying to tell people that you can use a lower secondary voltage than the DC voltage reguired, then state in your own use, you use a higher secondary voltage! Unless, 15 volts somehow became lower than 13.8?

AND, 350 is NOT a ballpark figure, it is what the manufacturer spec'ed. YOU said you follow the spec's. With a grid driven tetrode, ESPECIALLY one with delicate grids like the 250 series, screen and grid voltage is MAJOR important. Hence the need for multiple taps you argue against below.
______________________________



...You want the best you can get, when you homebrew something. You usually spend more than you would purchasing new or used equipment, so it's either to get something better than is commercially available, or because you get a hard on watching your plate current meter peg the 5A scale :)


I suggest you do not tap off the plate supply with dropping resistors for the screen supply. It can be done but is not a good idea for AM or SSB service where the plate current is rather dynamic as it will cause fluctions in the screen voltage.


...Agreed.


I suggest you start looking at places like RFparts or Surpluss Sales of Nebraska unless you want to pay top dollar from Peter Dahl for the iron you need.

...Peter Dahl has some transformers spec'ed out exactly for what he wants, for amps I and a couple others in San Diego built in the 80s. Think Mudshack, if you look in their catalog. That store didn't do the amps, but they where the front :)


Do you really need dual voltage primary BTW? And what about the 5 and 10% taps?? Are they really necessary as well?


...No, but they are free. When you order a xformer from Dahl, why NOT get freebies? You are paying top dollar, and getting the best your money can purchase.. Why NOT get something better?

> Assuming of course the xmfr's are bought from PW Dahl.

______________________________
I seem to recall MC stating that this was a premium build up... Correcting the problems you find in commercial crap amps. And he was going to be purchasing the iron from a manufacturer. And if all of the above is true, PWDahl is the supplier of choice.
______________________________





...And yes, they are necessary....

>Nice maybe. Necessary no.

______________________________
If you want to follow your own guidelines of following the manufacturers spec's, you have to have a means of adjusting primaries. The voltage levels incoming in my house vary between all seasons, depending on whether or not AC is being used, cooking in the evenings, etc. It can cause + / - 5 VAC on the input. Move. You might find +15 volts, if you move to a different power grid. Now, all of a sudden, your fils are over voltage, your screen voltage is almost at maximum rated, and grid voltage is so high in reference to screen that the tube is being operated WAY out of ratings... Just about being run to full potential at IDLE!

Any other questions?
______________________________



Maybe a bit nice to have if being picky about setting voltages but the amp won't mind a bit of leeway.Generally big amateur amps and comercial stuff have a series of taps to compensate for local line voltage variations but they are far from necessary for homebrew projects.



...I don't see how something that is free isn't necessary or wanted for homebrew use.

>Again, assuming the supplier is PW Dahl.

______________________________
Premium build up doesn't mean you spec out transformers from a surplus store.
______________________________




To each his own.

> I agree. I prefer to run tubes within manufacturers spec. Others don't.I'll have more money in my pocket in the end. ;)

______________________________
You agree, you want to run the tube within spec, but don't care what voltages you run on it. Please explain how you can run a tube within spec without having some way of adjusting the filament, plate and grid voltages.
______________________________


==Toll_Free



--Toll_Free
[/quote]
 
Time to give an old thread some CPR.....
What value of resistor would be used to tune the tank coil for resonance on 11 meters for the pride DX-300?

general question
How do you determine the value of a resistor to tune a tank coil of a tube amp?
 
Uhh, "resistor"?

Not generally a component used to tune anything. Really useful for lots of other circuit functions, though.

The "tuning" of a tank circuit any where near 27 MHz is done by using the correct combination of inductance, a coil of some sort, and a capacitor.

So, are you referring to the amplifier's output-side "tank" circuit? Usually in the form of what they call a "PI" network. A coil with a capacitor going to ground on each end.

As for the output tank circuit in a Pride DX300, we just use the fat enameled-wire coil that was the 10-meter part of the original and hook it directly to the Load control, completely bypassing the band selector.

That band switch has been removed in this pic, but this is the idea. The turns on the coil get squeezed together to compensate for the extra wire that used to be in the circuit with the band switch.

uCd4eH.jpg


Or are you looking for some general design rule to use when building a box from scratch?

Just askin'

73
 
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Uhh, "resistor"?

Not generally a component used to tune anything. Really useful for lots of other circuit functions, though.

The "tuning" of a tank circuit any where near 27 MHz is done by using the correct combination of inductance, a coil of some sort, and a capacitor.

So, are you referring to the amplifier's output-side "tank" circuit? Usually in the form of what they call a "PI" network. A coil with a capacitor going to ground on each end.

As for the output tank circuit in a Pride DX300, we just use the fat enameled-wire coil that was the 10-meter part of the original and hook it directly to the Load control, completely bypassing the band selector.

That band switch has been removed in this pic, but this is the idea. The turns on the coil get squeezed together to compensate for the extra wire that used to be in the circuit with the band switch.

uCd4eH.jpg


Or are you looking for some general design rule to use when building a box from scratch?

Just askin'

73

Well......If you work out the formula to find the plate impedance of the toob you can use a resistor from anode to chassis with an antenna analyzer or even a radio with an swr meter to get the tank circuit right before you ever power up the amp. The same can be done with the input tune. The last 8877 conversion I did was almost tuned up before I ever plugged it in. The input match was spot on on the first round.

I don't remember the formula off the top of my head but will share it later.
 
What I have in the notes is plate impedance = plate volts under load / (1.7 x max plate current). I think 1.7 was for class B. It will get you damn close with a gg triode. I'm not sure if a tetrode will play the same.
 
Thank you, NomadRadio and 543 for the quick reply.

543, that was the answer I was looking for, for my second question. I was hoping that someone would have the value of the resistor that would be used to make the proper adjustment to the output take coil, in the output section, located between the tune and load variable capacitors. I don't want to take the bias class of the Pride DX-300 for granted.

Long story short, I was gifted a bunch of Pride DX 300 parts "literally parts" from a friend of a friend who is now a silent key. For the sake of the hobby and interest in electronics, I have been able to get one put together. The amp is now up and running. I'm at the point of getting the screen light to work and to get the pre-amp section working. Following the the manual on CBTricks has helped a bunch. There's just no info on the tank coil.

NomadRadio, I have been comparing datasheets of the 4cx250 to the 4cx400a, and I have noticed that aside from current rating between the tube, there is little difference in capacitance values on the input and output of the tubes.
Could the 4cx400 be a replacement for the 4cx250b? If not,why?
 
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I'm pretty sure the Svetlana "4CX400" is the military "GS-36b" tube with a new brand on it. The military spec sheet says the control grid is rated for 2/10 of a Watt. Svetlana's 4CX400 spec sheet says 2 Watts, same as a 4CX250B.

Not sure who to believe. Could be the lower rating reflects a more-conservative set of rules to rate the same tube for military service? Don't know.

The control grid's gain factor is higher. You'll need to turn down the grid-bias voltage a lot to make the 4CX400 perform, compared to a '250B. And you'll need a larger chimney to fit the anode ring. Bear in mind that if you use a blower that was sufficient for a 250-Watt tube, you need more air to get the 400-Watt rating from the larger tube.

A control grid that uses a lower bias voltage has the wires closer together, as a rule. When you space them closer, you have to make the grid wires thinner, or they block the electron path to the tube's anode. Thinner grid wires tend to have a lower power rating.

Just color me skeptical.

I have some GS36b tubes I promised myself I would try to adapt, or at least learn how to use effectively.

Too many irons in the fire, never have done that. Not gonna be this week or next.

73
 
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