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102 whip .

Wil mounting a 102 whip on the inside rear of my pickup bed by the tailgate be enough of a ground plane ??

Just to clear up a common misconception.
The metal in the vehicle is not the ground plane.

The actual ground plane is the earth under the vehicle.

Road Squawker, if the metal in the vehicle is not the ground plane, does that mean the metal body has no effect on the antenna?

Try setting a 1/4 wave radiator on the ground and see if the Earth produces enough ground plane to make an effective pattern and a signal low to the horizon. This setup will need radials in, on, or above the Earth to work right.

I've heard this claim before. Do you have a reliable reference for this idea?
 
Just to clear up a common misconception.
The metal in the vehicle is not the ground plane.

The actual ground plane is the earth under the vehicle.

I'm sorry but that is so wrong. Then a Corvette would have the best SWR in the world.
The vehicle chassis and the metal contained there in is part of the electrical circuit.
As it was mentioned you should be able to put a 1/4 wave on a piece plywood an you should have a low swr.
There is a capacitive loading from the vertical whip and the surrounding metal and the use of capacitive "HATs" would have no effect.

When I tune my antennas I am in a very big open space away from metal except the vehicle it is mounted on. NO JAFO's allowed and the vehicle doors, hood, and trunk are always closed.
It makes a difference.
 
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i have had quite a few discussions with people over the relative interchangeability of the terms 'ground plane' and 'counterpoise'.

best we ever came up with was that sometimes it's ok to use either term, but sometimes you need to choose the right one LOL.
LC
You say potato I say french fries.
 
Once upon a time their was a specific definition for the word "counterpoise". Then at some point (around the time of the 13'th edition of the ARRL Antenna Book), hams started using term differently. This change carried over to the CB side of things.

On another forum I asked the members to define counterpoise, and everyone that left a reply gave a different response. I had something like 20 different responses, and none of them were fully interchangeable. Further, no one could provide any hard information on where their specific information came from. In Marconi's link the same thing happened again, everyone gave a different answer. What counterpoise appears to be is a word that everyone is sure they "know" what it means, but no two people seem to agree fully... Also, no one seems to use it the way it was originally used either...


The DB
 
I'm sorry but that is so wrong. Then a Corvette would have the best SWR in the world...edit....

No, it is correct.
the vehicle body is just one side of a capacitor between the antenna and the earth under the vehicle, which is the ground plane.

Thats why a fiberglass Corvette body sucks under an antenna.

You confuse Elect ground, RF ground, and ground plane.

your comments about closing doors, ect has nothing to do with a ground plane. rather, it implies poor bonding across sliding hinges.;)
 
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I checked out the ARRL for this info.
Once upon a time their was a specific definition for the word "counterpoise". Then at some point (around the time of the 13'th edition of the ARRL Antenna Book), hams started using term differently. This change carried over to the CB side of things.
Also, no one seems to use it the way it was originally used either...
DB if you know, can you tell us what the ARRL definition for counterpoise was before it changed?

Here are the short quotes for radials, ground plane, and counterpoise, quoted from the 19th edition of the ARRL Antenna Handbook.

"A practical vertical is supplied power by feeding the radiator against a ground system, usually made up of a series of paralleled wires radiating from and laid out in a circular pattern around the base or the antenna. These wires are termed radials.

The term 'ground plane" is also used to describe a vertical antenna employing a 1/4-wave long vertical radiator working against a counterpoise system, another name for the ground plane that supplies the missing half of the antenna.

The counterpoise for a ground-plane antenna consists of four 1/4-wave long radials elevated well above the Earth."


Further, no one could provide any hard information on where their specific information came from. In Marconi's link the same thing happened again, everyone gave a different answer. What counterpoise appears to be is a word that everyone is sure they "know" what it means, but no two people seem to agree fully...

Somehow, getting different replies for these terms doesn't surprise me at all. I may have questioned Road Squawker's explanation for being brief and categorical, but I can't rule his idea out either. That is why I asked for a reference.
 
The vehicle is insulated from the road,you are on rubber tires.
Next time you are on a toll road look on the ground when you roll up on the booth to
pay the collector. There will be a little SS whip on a spring that hits your axle and drains off the static buildup so you dont' shock the toll collector
 
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Big Kahuna, did you have your 102" whip on the bumper or was it up on the top of the bed rail near the tailgate?

I've done it both ways - on my 1977 Chevy that had a steel bumper I drilled a hole and mounted it straight through. On the bumper was way more directional than the corner of the bed mount I had on my 1995 Dodge - that one I mounted in the corner of the bed ( about a foot before the tailgate if I remember right) then I ran ground cables direct to the frame. I ran a 102" in that setup with great results. But I do remember it being more directional to the front (at least I think that was the case) it was either more direction to the front or back, that was like 14 years ago so hard to recall.
 
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RT431 if I bonded my box, what difference should I expect?

Less noise for a start especially if you bond the bed to the chassis and cab, the cab to the chassis, the hood to the inner fenders and bond each exhaust section to the chassis as well. You'll find you need to shorten the antenna.
 
DB if you know, can you tell us what the ARRL definition for counterpoise was before it changed?

Pre-13'th edition ARRL Antenna Books are all very similar. Its under the 160 meter antennas section of the book. How do I know they are all similar? I own a copy of all of them except 2'nd edition. That bugger has been a pain to get a hold of...

Old ARRL Antenna Books (This is from 12'th Edition) said:
The counterpoise is a form of capacitive ground which is quite effective. Its use is particularly beneficial when an extensive buried system is not practicable, or when an ordinary pipe ground cannot be made to have sufficiently low resistance, as in rocky or sandy soils.

To work properly, a counterpoise must be large enough to have considerable capacitance to ground, which means that it should cover as much ground area as the location will permit. No specific dimensions have to be used, nor is the number of wires particularly critical. A good form is an approximately circular arrangement using radials wires with cross-connectors joining them at intervals, as in Fig. 7-7. There is no particular necessity for extending the radius of a circular beyond a half wavelength, nor do the lengths of the individual wires have to bear any particular relation to the wavelength. Rather, the intention is to have the counterpoise act as a pure capacitance instead of exhibiting resonant effects. The capacitance of the counterpoise will be approximately equal to that of a capacitor consisting of two plates each of the same area as that of the counterpoise, with spacing equal to the height of the counterpoise above the ground.

The shape of the counterpoise mat be made anything convenient, square or oblong arrangements are usually relatively easy to construct and will work satisfactorily. There should not be too few wires, but on the other hand separations between wires up go 10 or 15 feet will do no harm on fairly large counterpoises, and 5 to 10 feet on smaller ones. It is a good plan to join adjacent wires with jumpers at intervals about equal to the wire separation so that resonance effects will be minimized.

The height of the counterpoise is not particularly critical. It is best to construct high enough to be out of the way, which ordinarily means from 6 to 10 feet above the ground. Remember that the height of the antennas is reduced by the amount of counterpoise height.

Satisfactory results have been secured with counterpoises simply lying on the ground, or with large screens of chicken wire similarly laid under the antenna. However, the best performance will be secured, as a general rule, when the counterpoise in insulated ground ground. When in contact with the ground surface, the losses are likely to be higher because the counterpoise tends to act either as a poorly conducting direct ground or as a leaky-dielectric capacitor.

Again, I am pointing out that this is specifically in the 160 meters section of this version of the ARRL Antenna Book 12'th edition. If you want to make one for CB, you need to scale all measurements listed above to frequency...

Also figure 7.7...

[photo=medium]5995[/photo]

In the 13'th Edition of the ARRL Antenna Book, unlike previous editions, it doesn't have an entire section of its own, it has half a paragraph, and half a figure.

ARRL Antenna Book 13'th Edition said:
Another method to reduce ground currents is shown in Fig. 7-1B. Bu raising the antenna and ground plane off of the earth, Cw stays the same in value but Ce is considerably reduced (such a system is sometimes called a counterpoise).

And Figure 7-1B...

[photo=medium]5996[/photo]


The DB
 
Pre-13'th edition ARRL Antenna Books are all very similar. Its under the 160 meter antennas section of the book.

DB this older counterpoise material you posted above is very detailed and complicated. I wonder why the ARRL publication made this change and reduced the content for subsequent issues? Currently it seems the term counterpoise is scattered out into numerous tolpics.

Was it just an old outdated idea, or could it be they found something wrong in the previous ideas for this issue? Or, did they possibly determine that the term counterpoise only applied 160 meters and lower.

On another forum I asked the members to define counterpoise, and everyone that left a reply gave a different response.
I said earlier, i wasn't surprised you got varied responses to your post below. The topic is just too complicated for me.

BTW, since everybody had a different idea...did the discussion ever conclude with any useful exchange of information, or did it just stop?
 
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When I once lived near the Florida gulf, I often drove my van down a boat ramp when the skip was rolling, rims just touched the water. I had a Shakespeare marine mount CB antenna on the roof. Got out like gang busters running only barefoot. That was the result of having a great “water plane." I just had to remind myself to back out before the tide got too high, least the engine would be flooded.
 
I wonder why the ARRL publication made this change and reduced the content for subsequent issues?

I can't speak to this, but the 13'th edition was a unique edition. Essentially, the first 4 were the same. Editions 5 through 12 took what was in the first 4 and expanded on them over time. I consider these a set because they use the same format, its just newer versions have more information. Edition 13 was a major change from what came before, a lot added, but a lot stripped out and changed as well. It was also the longest running version at seven years before edition 14 came out, nearly twice as long as any other edition. I would call these two (13 and 14) the transition period. Edition 15 is the first that uses the modern format, although unlike the earlier editions, some things have disappeared from the newer line as well.

I'm not sure what edition of the ARRL Antenna book you got your quote above out of, but the 22'nd edition had three or four places the index pointed to, all of which had one or two sentences. An interesting thing about the wording at these locations is it appears they are talking about three or four completely different things as how they used the word is completely different each time. Then, there are two paragraphs in the book in other chapters, that is not in the index for some reason, that talks fairly extensively about what a counterpoise is and these non-indexed sections even directly refer to each other. I don't know why they are not listed in the index.

In the 23'rd edition, the only index entry points to a blurb on page 2-13 that talks about that antenna's "other half" and "radial system". The way it is worded it is referring to every radial system. However, on page 3-18 there is a (I'll be it small) section called "Counterpoise Systems" that gives (contradictory) information on what a counterpoise is compared to the indexed section. This section refers to the "early days of radio" and "capacitive ground" which, while not directly stated, does imply an isolated ground system. It also talks about being used specifically for 80 and 160 meters. This entire section is not in the index for some reason. I have not looked through the book for other non-indexed places where they refer to some version of a "counterpoise", but I would bet their is more information present somewhere in this book.

I don't know why the biggest and more historically accurate sections of what a counterpoise is aren't listed in the most recent two ARRL Antenna Books index, while small sections of one or two lines that contradict said sections are. It is most annoying though.


The DB
 

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