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Palomar ELITE 400 HD input wattage?

Danny Radioc

Active Member
Jan 25, 2016
40
2
28
71
Yep; 300 watts of real power and 100 watts of harmonics.
Not cool . . .
Yeah I can see right now there's nothing on this list but a bunch of yeah I know everything when really they know nothing
To other people come oVet. With their bird meters and measured to radio on the radio is due in 380 on the high with a 2 1/2 what dk.
OK my cheap 700s May be wrong but I refuse to believe that two separate sets of birds are wrong
 

Robb

Yup
Dec 18, 2008
11,433
3,560
323
Silicon Valley CA, Storm Lake IA
Yeah I can see right now there's nothing on this list but a bunch of yeah I know everything when really they know nothing
To other people come oVet. With their bird meters and measured to radio on the radio is due in 380 on the high with a 2 1/2 what dk.
OK my cheap 700s May be wrong but I refuse to believe that two separate sets of birds are wrong
Easy Hoss; you might want to open your mind up here a bit.

Let's understand that each 1446 is spec'd @ 75 watts each/300watts for four. That is clean, usable power out - according to the people who mfd the part as well as providing to the engineering community with the data sheet to create applications. That is using 12.5v, so at 13v (not in specs with the data sheet BTW), it will start putting out a little more power. But also starting to add some distortion/harmonics just because you used 13v; 13.8v will have even more. Transistors are notorious for doing just that.

Now, lets add more input power than they were spec'd for. They are spec'd for 5 watts/ea; so a total of 20 watts peak input @ 13v using four transistors with some distortion should put out 320 watts. That is almost 10% added distortion from the spec'd 300 w/o distortion.

Even if this amp claims to be AB biased; bias circuits in many of these amps aren't what really should be. They are built on the cheap.

Now, if you drive it with 40 watts, not only does the distortion rise to 30% or more, but you run the risk blowing those transistors and will need expensive repairs just because you wanted some more watts. Extra cooling will not help, because inside the transistor at its junction will get hotter/faster than the heat sink can cool them.
Just a matter of time . . .
 
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Danny Radioc

Active Member
Jan 25, 2016
40
2
28
71
Easy Hoss; you might want to open your mind up here a bit.

Let's understand that each 1446 is spec'd @ 75 watts each/300watts for four. That is clean, usable power out - according to the people who mfg the part an well as providing to the engineering community with the data sheet to create applications. That is using 12.5v, so at 13v (not in specs with the data sheet BTW), it will start putting out a little more power. But also starting to add some distortion/harmonics just because you used 13v; 13.8v will have even more. Transistors are notorious for doing just that.

Now, lets add more input power than they were spec'd for. They are spec'd for 5 watts/ea; so a total of 20 watts peak input @ 13v using four transistors with some distortion should put out 320 watts. That is almost 10% added distortion from the spec'd 300 w/o distortion.

Now, if you drive it with 40 watts, not only does the distion rise to 30% or more, but you run the risk blowing those transistors and will need expensive repair because you wanted some more watts. Extra cooling will not help, because inside the transistor at it junction will get hotter/faster than the heat sink can cool them.
Just a matter of time . . .
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah that's all I see you saying blah blah blah blah blah I'm looking at the meters and three meters saying 380 on three separate meters or you could quote on the techno Gobley goo you want to I can't deny my eyes and what I'm seeing so have a great day
 

tba02

WOOF
Jan 26, 2014
619
403
173
SF Bay Area, CA, USA
So, let's clarify this a little.
Yes, I can make my 4xSD1446 class AB bias amplifier show 380-400 watts on my active peak reading meter. I've seen it, done it, however I don't as a rule. I am going to guess that your amp is probably closer to class B and drops to C as it heats up. That makes it even easier to hit the higher numbers.

The point being made is the unstated second part of the statement - the wattage you are seeing above 300 (I personally use 320 as my upper limit) are wasted watts. They gain you nothing and they only create splatter, degrade your signal, and overwork the transistors which leads to failure sooner than would happen if not overworked.

Run it as you see fit, just know that there is a science to all this that really does work.
 
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Danny Radioc

Active Member
Jan 25, 2016
40
2
28
71
So, let's clarify this a little.
Yes, I can make my 4xSD1446 class AB bias amplifier show 380-400 watts on my active peak reading meter. I've seen it, done it, however I don't as a rule. I am going to guess that your amp is probably closer to class B and drops to C as it heats up. That makes it even easier to hit the higher numbers.

The point being made is the unstated second part of the statement - the wattage you are seeing above 300 (I personally use 320 as my upper limit) are wasted watts. They gain you nothing and they only create splatter, degrade your signal, and overwork the transistors which leads to failure sooner than would happen if not overworked.

Run it as you see fit, just know that there is a science to all this that really does work.[/
This is not science this is me seeing one thing and you saying something else. Personally I'm going to believe my eyes. What I see on three different meters must be true
 

Robb

Yup
Dec 18, 2008
11,433
3,560
323
Silicon Valley CA, Storm Lake IA
"...This is not science this is me seeing one thing and you saying something else. Personally I'm going to believe my eyes. What I see on three different meters must be true."- Danny Radioc

Most of those extra 100 watts are not even on the CB band. Some of them are at 54mhz, also known as the 6 meter band, one of the Ham bands. Which is one of the reasons that Hams get their underwear in a twist. It ends up there and it wrecks a portion of that band.

Other harmonic watts go elsewhere.
But not at the people you think you are talking to on the CB band.

So while you pride yourself on getting that power out of that amp - that you didn't build - and trust in a meter - that cannot tell you that those extra watts aren't even on the CB channel you are talking on - you are no different than those who just don't have a clue and still don't get it.

I don't take pleasure from your ignorance in this matter. I did take the time to explain it all to you so that you could be better informed. That is what we like to do here; to do it better than we could personally do before. There are some forums that will tell you everything you want to hear. Maybe you are OK with that.

And yes, it is science...
 
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magnuman

Well-Known Member
Feb 20, 2010
221
178
53
Jakaarta
91dd018.spaces.live.com
"...This is not science this is me seeing one thing and you saying something else. Personally I'm going to believe my eyes. What I see on three different meters must be true."

Most of those extra 100 watts are not even on the CB band. Many of them are at 54mhz, also known as the 6 meter band, one of the Ham bands. Which is one of the reasons that Hams get their underwear in a twist. It ends up there and it wrecks a portion of that band.

Other harmonics go elsewhere.
But not at the people you think you are talking to on the CB band.

Put a Low pass filter in the line after the amp and before the meter and see if anything changes.
 

rabbiporkchop

Sr. Member
Jan 18, 2007
1,830
756
123
pennsylvania
[QUOit E="Danny Radioc, post: 542078, member: 46535"]You know what that's really funny because I've had two different people bring their meters over and measure the out and both are seein 350-380. Now I see what you want the 2 m or 3 m not all of them can be wrong.[/QUOTE]
Put It on a spectrum analyzer and it will look like this.
FB_IMG_1449429286827_zps0zctbuo0.jpg

It is supposed to look like this:
FB_IMG_1448218560357_zps3cr4hi0g.jpg

Your buddies meters are accurate but unfortunately they are including harmonics in the measurement.
power means nothing unless its on the fundamental frequency.
 

psycho

Running a special on our rooms!
Aug 25, 2006
3,435
1,298
173
Floriduh
Yeah I can see right now there's nothing on this list but a bunch of yeah I know everything when really they know nothing
To other people come oVet. With their bird meters and measured to radio on the radio is due in 380 on the high with a 2 1/2 what dk.
OK my cheap 700s May be wrong but I refuse to believe that two separate sets of birds are wrong

Would you like some cheese with your whine? In case you didn't know.....a Bird 43P is even more loose than a Dosy on peak.
 
Last edited:

Danny Radioc

Active Member
Jan 25, 2016
40
2
28
71
On that particular amp, HD stands for "Hardly Drive" not "High Drive". Any more input than 1.5-2W DK will let all of the magic smoke escape.

(I own one)

(I know)

;)
More than 1/2 to 2 will cause smoke?
I drive mine with 3-4 w and get about 380 out. Maybe someone beefed mine up.
 

Danny Radioc

Active Member
Jan 25, 2016
40
2
28
71
[QUOit E="Danny Radioc, post: 542078, member: 46535"]You know what that's really funny because I've had two different people bring their meters over and measure the out and both are seein 350-380. Now I see what you want the 2 m or 3 m not all of them can be wrong.
Put It on a spectrum analyzer and it will look like this.
FB_IMG_1449429286827_zps0zctbuo0.jpg

It is supposed to look like this:
FB_IMG_1448218560357_zps3cr4hi0g.jpg

Your buddies meters are accurate but unfortunately they are including harmonics in the measurement.
power means nothing unless its on the fundamental frequency.[/QUOTE]
No explain that one more time without all the techno junk. I'm not trying to be funny here I just don't understand all that technological Gobley goo language
 
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222DBFL

Sr. Member
Jul 28, 2013
3,300
1,352
173
Harmonics and premature failure of components is the end result of over driving these amps. They don't like a lot of input power, both DK and pep wattage. My 250 elite or what ever it is, likes about 1.5w DK and about 8-10 watts of pep on SSB for it to sound good. Who cares about seeing a bunch of power on any meter if it's not being transmitted on the intended frequency and only that frequency. When you can get over wattage numbers some and realize what things are supposed to do, maybe you will see the light. Until then keep the amp techs happy with all the repairs they get LOL!! And I know here are quite a few!!
 

222DBFL

Sr. Member
Jul 28, 2013
3,300
1,352
173
Sorry couldn't help it!! All I will say is antenna, antenna, antenna!! And oh yeah Mother Nature!! Hope all is well tba02, aka 222 of the west coast;). Be good. And man I when you see the light it hurts your eyes. And it hurts feelings too!! But it's lessons well learned!! (y):D
 
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