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Is a "voltage regulator diode" the same thing as a Zener diode?
- Thread starter Naysayer
- Start date
I just wanted to bring to your attention that you're good to ask this.
Why?
In my research, many of the products Electronics are shoved into - are mostly clones and are not being spotted as "irregular"
You know what a "Zener Diode" symbol is? Correct?
Bing as well as other search engines are at a loss to know the exact terminology or even how to draw a "toon" of the symbol to make sense.
The key word here is to remove any references to "Schottky" or similar doped and built 1-layer junctions. Because when you look at the PDF - it's missing the other lower half - so its done not as a lazy (or perhaps it is) way to draw it - but to denote the device in singular form as being a Zener Diode and Not a Varactor or TVS (Bi-direction Surge device) or those gawd-auwlful noisy schottky's and a lot of this is getting carried away by those that know, are not stepping up to the place and saying Hold It!
So since you're going with a 1N denoted standardized numbering device - you're going in the right way to solve your situation.
The only reason I posted this was - when I went to review the PDF and noted the change in the symbol - so you're safer to ask for an opinion about the ability of the Zener to act as expected than to give a more broader generalized term of "Voltage Regulation Device" makes the subject less guided and more vague - like what would happen if I put too much voltage into this regulator (as it is part of it's system) - and it's incapable of handling any heavier current than that which it's rated for - but when used in support with devices that can, produce work that keeps your system running - not getting too deep into this - at least you're not generating a Semiconductor "Grenade" ready to demonstrate it's inability to work under load.
Why?
In my research, many of the products Electronics are shoved into - are mostly clones and are not being spotted as "irregular"
You know what a "Zener Diode" symbol is? Correct?
Bing as well as other search engines are at a loss to know the exact terminology or even how to draw a "toon" of the symbol to make sense.
The key word here is to remove any references to "Schottky" or similar doped and built 1-layer junctions. Because when you look at the PDF - it's missing the other lower half - so its done not as a lazy (or perhaps it is) way to draw it - but to denote the device in singular form as being a Zener Diode and Not a Varactor or TVS (Bi-direction Surge device) or those gawd-auwlful noisy schottky's and a lot of this is getting carried away by those that know, are not stepping up to the place and saying Hold It!
So since you're going with a 1N denoted standardized numbering device - you're going in the right way to solve your situation.
The only reason I posted this was - when I went to review the PDF and noted the change in the symbol - so you're safer to ask for an opinion about the ability of the Zener to act as expected than to give a more broader generalized term of "Voltage Regulation Device" makes the subject less guided and more vague - like what would happen if I put too much voltage into this regulator (as it is part of it's system) - and it's incapable of handling any heavier current than that which it's rated for - but when used in support with devices that can, produce work that keeps your system running - not getting too deep into this - at least you're not generating a Semiconductor "Grenade" ready to demonstrate it's inability to work under load.
Been replacing 400mW and half-Watt zeners with 1-Watt parts for a long time. The local parts store didn't sell zeners smaller than 1 Watt back in the bad old days. There is supposed to be a subtle difference in performance for a zener marketed as a "voltage reference", and one sold as normal brute-force zener regulator. If memory serves, the "voltage reference" type has a lower noise level.
And maybe I'm remembering wrong. Back in the bad old 23-channel days, zener diodes were chronic breakdown items. Upgrading the Watt rating just seemed sensible. Can't remember which radio it was, but when it would blow out a 1-Watt zener we would stack two in series, each with half the original voltage to spread the load heat better. Oddly enough, this would show up in hot weather, in a radio used in a truck with no air conditioning.
Boy, that was a long time ago.
73
And maybe I'm remembering wrong. Back in the bad old 23-channel days, zener diodes were chronic breakdown items. Upgrading the Watt rating just seemed sensible. Can't remember which radio it was, but when it would blow out a 1-Watt zener we would stack two in series, each with half the original voltage to spread the load heat better. Oddly enough, this would show up in hot weather, in a radio used in a truck with no air conditioning.
Boy, that was a long time ago.
73
Thanks for the Replies. The wording had me questioning everything and those tiny glass diodes look fragile. Handy Andy I did notice that missing line in the diagram symbol and I found myself attributing it to 'how the Scott's do it across the Sea' (G3SEK's plans). I've been wrestling with this HV safety circuit for weeks. Controlling kv's (heavy relay) with a small signal device is like a shoe that doesn't fit, gonna need a shoehorn every time.
Yes, they certainly look (and are) fragile!
So if you're thinking about "jumping ship" from NXP - I also have done several winded messages about the discovery and new use of a device designed for something - only to find out that it's a close clone to a part that is ordinary and common.
They believe in the product - else they wouldn't have their jobs - so something's gotta' make this get a hook so it can sell...
They can try various ways - but the downplay of this is - the device can do this, but the OEM device already in there - doesn't give the new part any ability to perform so it seems to "fall flat".
So they go back to re-engineer a platform of support that makes the part perform better than anything else available in the market. Catch: it is in an idealized environment - it requires X and Y to make up for Z.
What gets hilarious is the changes from this "substandard part" subbed in - gives you this redacted result - moment. So that doesn't help to sell the item - so the sales department works with engineering and they put a few thingamgiddys to the whatchmacallit and add a few more "whatnots" and come up with a golly-gee Whizz Bang! and call it the next revolution in RF amplification.
If it looks like a bi-polar, works like a bi-polar - yes, it prolly is, a bi-polar.
But why all the extra support parts?
That is where it gets crazy and in light of the Zener and Isolation you'd need for the small switch - big load capacity moment - you can't have a bunch of engineering staff adding more horsepower to flea-powered small wattage device and expect miracles.
If you bailed out of NXP for mainstream - you will do fine - but as to refer back to what @nomadradio said - be sure to pad the ratings a little higher to protect this part from failing and leaving the project stranded again.
So if you're thinking about "jumping ship" from NXP - I also have done several winded messages about the discovery and new use of a device designed for something - only to find out that it's a close clone to a part that is ordinary and common.
They believe in the product - else they wouldn't have their jobs - so something's gotta' make this get a hook so it can sell...
They can try various ways - but the downplay of this is - the device can do this, but the OEM device already in there - doesn't give the new part any ability to perform so it seems to "fall flat".
So they go back to re-engineer a platform of support that makes the part perform better than anything else available in the market. Catch: it is in an idealized environment - it requires X and Y to make up for Z.
What gets hilarious is the changes from this "substandard part" subbed in - gives you this redacted result - moment. So that doesn't help to sell the item - so the sales department works with engineering and they put a few thingamgiddys to the whatchmacallit and add a few more "whatnots" and come up with a golly-gee Whizz Bang! and call it the next revolution in RF amplification.
If it looks like a bi-polar, works like a bi-polar - yes, it prolly is, a bi-polar.
But why all the extra support parts?
That is where it gets crazy and in light of the Zener and Isolation you'd need for the small switch - big load capacity moment - you can't have a bunch of engineering staff adding more horsepower to flea-powered small wattage device and expect miracles.
If you bailed out of NXP for mainstream - you will do fine - but as to refer back to what @nomadradio said - be sure to pad the ratings a little higher to protect this part from failing and leaving the project stranded again.
So I fell prey to NXP's fancy wording? It had me chasing my tail and I almost ordered another BZX out of reflex despite having a strip of 12v 1w zeners.
Today I removed the relay board and found the problem, I think. It was mechanical: A torn pcb foil trace feeding the relay electrolytic. It was my fault/sloppy work.
When mounting the boards (2020?) I relocated a pcb-mounted electrolytic that was too tall to fit and I used solid wire that lifted the trace apart over time. Explains the sewing machine noise. I'll use flexible fine wire and find another place for the too tall cap.
n2eye, NYC
Today I removed the relay board and found the problem, I think. It was mechanical: A torn pcb foil trace feeding the relay electrolytic. It was my fault/sloppy work.
When mounting the boards (2020?) I relocated a pcb-mounted electrolytic that was too tall to fit and I used solid wire that lifted the trace apart over time. Explains the sewing machine noise. I'll use flexible fine wire and find another place for the too tall cap.
n2eye, NYC
Last Post for awhile. Relay repeatedly switch from On to Off fast when activated. I suspect the k-3 relay on the G-2 board is defective. I realize relays rarely fail ... don't think I've ever seen such a fail ... contacts get ruined but the coil armature mechanism?
The G3SEK description for K-3 is a 6v DC coil RTE24006 and the relay installed is suitable (Siemens RTE24005F 5v). Datasheet search suggests the product line was taken over by another company so that's fun to figure out, not! The other 2 relays same Siemens series but 12v coil as per manual.
The relay power source is stable and the T-R switching circuit functions properly. Testing as per manual removes all the fancy IC's to verify basic relay function and that narrows the possibilities. At least they are cheap just takes a lot of time to replace.
I'll be back.
The G3SEK description for K-3 is a 6v DC coil RTE24006 and the relay installed is suitable (Siemens RTE24005F 5v). Datasheet search suggests the product line was taken over by another company so that's fun to figure out, not! The other 2 relays same Siemens series but 12v coil as per manual.
The relay power source is stable and the T-R switching circuit functions properly. Testing as per manual removes all the fancy IC's to verify basic relay function and that narrows the possibilities. At least they are cheap just takes a lot of time to replace.
I'll be back.
In automotive, this happens more often that many realize.
The Fan relays in specific instances can "bind" and then "snap" within the Relay box it's contained in.
In some cases blowing open and done.
Others short and try to take out the vehicles electronics from the armature arm shorting to the coil and powering devices on, when they should be off.
The Relay itself is supposed to isolate the higher power, current or voltage or even both from the low-side - but arcing on the contact versus arcing into the low-voltage side - that flashover - can kill - even the user.
The EMF diode is supposed to handle this, and some relays are now made with TVS (Transient Voltage Suppressors or DIACS/Back-to-Back Zeners) to supposedly handle the back-EMF but as we switch from the old 12V auto to +200V 6,000lb battery powered carp, I'm sure we'll see a lot more experiences with faulty mechanicals and their support electronics begin melting together...
We haven't even touched on the Schottky mess this could develop into...
Referring to single-ended doping and isolation...just for starters...
The Fan relays in specific instances can "bind" and then "snap" within the Relay box it's contained in.
In some cases blowing open and done.
Others short and try to take out the vehicles electronics from the armature arm shorting to the coil and powering devices on, when they should be off.
The Relay itself is supposed to isolate the higher power, current or voltage or even both from the low-side - but arcing on the contact versus arcing into the low-voltage side - that flashover - can kill - even the user.
The EMF diode is supposed to handle this, and some relays are now made with TVS (Transient Voltage Suppressors or DIACS/Back-to-Back Zeners) to supposedly handle the back-EMF but as we switch from the old 12V auto to +200V 6,000lb battery powered carp, I'm sure we'll see a lot more experiences with faulty mechanicals and their support electronics begin melting together...
We haven't even touched on the Schottky mess this could develop into...
Referring to single-ended doping and isolation...just for starters...
Found the problem (ha I’ve written that before) : The diode across the coax relay (N4006) shorted. Keying amp repeatedly tripped the 3 relays upstream on the G2 board. Never saw an ordinary axial type diode go short.
Removed G2 board and teste on table where it worked fine. I was oblivious to the notion that the problem was downstream from the boards. Relieved because my troubleshooting is limited to replacing parts.
Need a larger diode I guess. Maybe rethink my coax relay while I have it all out.
neil, NYC
Removed G2 board and teste on table where it worked fine. I was oblivious to the notion that the problem was downstream from the boards. Relieved because my troubleshooting is limited to replacing parts.
Need a larger diode I guess. Maybe rethink my coax relay while I have it all out.
neil, NYC
Been busy. In addition to the snubber diode, my inclination to use regular 12v zeners in place of BZX79C12 zeners was a bad idea. The BZX zeners (D-6 and D-118) control the mosfets that take the Screen & Plate offline when triggered. Also found BZX D-6, to be open/nc. After removing boards, replacing the large T-R relay w/ 3x smaller IDEC 12A SPDT (2 for Transmit, 1 for Rec) plus the 20-80 Load padding caps (progressively shorting switch and a 10-80 roller, I'll avoid chancing an untested substitution: It all comes down to time now. A brief PO test shows PO improvement. Waiting on a few more parts then try again.
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