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5/8 wave antenna question

loosecannon

Sr. Member
Mar 9, 2006
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hi all,

does a 5/8 wave antenna such as the maco V5/8, the I-10K, or the Mr.coily use the groundplane radials for antenna tuning, or are they there to lower the take off angle?

to put it another way, can you use these antennas without the radials and still obtain a low SWR?

yes, i realize that other things will be negatively affected by the radials being gone, but i still want to know about the SWR.

so, whats the story?
loosecannon
 

Yes and Yes; NO; the ground radials are the other half of the antenna.

A half wave radiator does not need a ground plane however.
 
"or are they there to lower the take off angle?"

the radials are there because current flowing into the antenna end must be equalled by current flowing into a ground or counterpoise of some type. it's the other (mirror) half of the antenna.

a 1/2 wave end fed vertical does indeed require a ground plane.
 
loosecannon, I don't know enough to tell you for sure, but from what I have read, or the lack of it, the TOA characteristic is not a constructed feature of an antenna. I have read it described this way,
"One of the more important performance characteristics of any antenna system is its angle of radiation. Angle of radiation is not built into an antenna, you the amateur make that happen by the placing your antenna at the proper height."

As important as it is, it remains a difficult topic, probably because it is very difficult to measure and quantify. Related to this issue is the condition of the soil in the path of radiation and what obstructions lay in the way. It may be hard to really realize how much this affects an antenna unless you have had a chance to personally work over salt water or maybe have worked a station located over this nearly perfect ground plane.

I think you are curious about the effects of an elevated and physical counterpoise being attached to a vertical radiator and not a earth bound ground plane attached to a vertical monopole. If so, I don't believe the ground plane elements actually play much if any part in the TOA for an antenna. If a ground plan feature is really effective and works to improve the antenna, then it does so by adding some basic efficiency, but I don't think it improves the TOA. To the extent TOA can be affected, only height above earth can do that.

An article I find interesting is by Walter Fair. It is not in particular about your issue and I don't think he was testing for the effects of height either. But if you can believe his modeling results and the modeling is correct, then you may see the affects of making changes to radial elements. I believe he also discusses the 5/8 wave radiator.

I think Walter does note that the TOA goes higher if the GP radials begin to show too much current flow in them as apposed to the current flowing in the radiator. I believe he explains that only happens when the GP radials get very long relative to the frequency. Otherwise, I see nothing he did with radials having any affect on the TOA that he notes in his results.
 
loosecannon said:
hi all,

does a 5/8 wave antenna such as the maco V5/8, the I-10K, or the Mr.coily use the groundplane radials for antenna tuning, or are they there to lower the take off angle?

to put it another way, can you use these antennas without the radials and still obtain a low SWR?

yes, i realize that other things will be negatively affected by the radials being gone, but i still want to know about the SWR.

so, whats the story?
loosecannon

why don't you just ask the makers of the antennas..as you will get a direct answer! skip all the um I think stuff..

after all, think of the word groundplane radials or groundplane kit
and what antennas it wouldn't mater with or with out them for receive only...
 
Lords, if you're saying that the GPK affects the receive only, then that would be pretty simple for any of us to check out. If you have ever made this comparison, one with and one without a GPK, you would know the answer and so would loosecannon that it is not possible to tell just by observations. Our human sense of hearing in this hobby is probably our best determining factor as to how our radios respond to changes or different products in line, yet we all tend to ignore what our ears tell us. Although in most cases it has nothing to do with our ears and I call it Meterites, a bad eye condition, where the eyes and the brain disconnect.

If loosecannon were to call and ask any of these guys, he still would likely not know the answer. Sure he would like to know the facts, but now at least he knows that others have speculated about these affects, TOA and the affects of an effective ground plane on a vertical antenna. Does it lower the TOA, improve the RX, improve the TX, improve the DX, improve the SWR, improve the gain, Improve all the above, make no difference, or what?

I like 1/4 wave ground planes and I have done a lot of my own ideas in experimenting on mine. The 1/4 wave is one antenna that right out of the box will demonstrate much of the truth about the affects and theory of Ground Planes. But, even so I still have never been able to determine the TOA and to tell what happens to it when I add radials or change the angle.

As far as SWR goes using a GPK on one of these CB antennas or not, I have found that adding a GPK to the A99 only seemed to narrow the bandwidth. It made a nice curve rather than an almost flat line, and maybe the SWR rise a bit, a big no-no for those with Meterites. So with that result I figured it was helping a bit even though I could not really detect anything with my radio meter, my SWR meter, my eyes, my ears, or my buddies who checked my signal.

I have not tried this with the Maco V5/8, but I do have an antenna made by Wolf radio that is very similar except it is a 1/2 wavelength and looks like the old Ringo, it does not have a ground plane attached. Performance wise it works very well, but the SWR is difficult to control and keep very low unless you are able to tune at installed height. When the antenna is moved up or down very much, the SWR changes, so I guess the match is also changing due to the changing relationship with the earth and maybe if it had a good GP that would not happen. If you have meterites, you would not like this one.

It is true you should not and cannot believe everything that you read, but what you read sometimes can get you to thinking and that is not always bad. If loosecannon did call he probably won't get much better suggestions to consider. So, with all that said, I guess it is possible that the presence of a GPK will really make a big difference with a 5/8 or .64 wavelength antenna, but I still doubt it affects the TOA very much if any.

There is another forum out there that sells these antennas on their Website. Some there will tell you all day long, among other things, that the GPK add-on will lower your TOA down and give you an S3-S4 signal improvement in gain on the horizon if installed according to their Tech Tip. Check it out.
 
loosecannon,
"does a 5/8 wave antenna such as the maco V5/8, the I-10K, or the Mr.coily use the groundplane radials for antenna tuning, or are they there to lower the take off angle?"

In general, radials affect tuning. In particular circumstances they can affect TOA. Perhaps describing those 'circumstances' as rare, or odd, would be a better description than 'particular'. It's just something that isn't useful very often. The same thing can be done by varying the antenna's height above ground. Not seen very often either.

"to put it another way, can you use these antennas without the radials and still obtain a low SWR?"

Yes. An impedance matching system (tuner) does that easily. The 'catch' to that is that SWR is a very poor way to measure how well an antenna is working. The only thing it does (if used correctly) is tell you how well impedances are being matched. Says nothing about TOA, resonance, or efficiency.

That applies for both transmitting and receiving, by the way. Easy to tell, use a tuner and 'un-tune' it, you can hear a difference in noise levels. Same for any impedance matching 'device'. While that can make some difference when receiving, it isn't near as critical as when transmitting. Receivers just aren't all that 'picky', sort of.

One last thingy. TOA is greatly over rated. It's only a measure of the lowest angle a signal can be received from. It does not mean that any particular desired signal will ~only~ be received from that low angle. Propagation determines what angle the 'desired' signal is received at. Sure, making that range of angles as large as possible usually means more chance of hearing what you want to hear. The other side of that is that you also get all the unwanted stuff in that range too (noise, etc.). Not really something to be obsessed with. If you can increase that 'angle' range without loosing something else that's useful, sure, why not?
An infinitely variable-in-all-directions antenna would be very nice to have! If you could afford it, had the room for it, and could put up with the complaints from the neighbors...
- 'Doc
 
An end-fed half-wave vertical certainly requires a matching system to transform the very high feedpoint impedance (typically thousands of ohms) to something more like 50-75 ohms. That's all it needs; it doesn't need radials.
 
No Jack, I did a lot of work on that project right before I had knee surgery and I never got back to it. I was in the process of planning out a new routine for doing it, but I don’t believe I will make it. I have developed a bit of Vertigo since I had surgery.

I did determine however, that the 1/4 wave ground plane antenna responds very predictably to the iterations that I made. The matching and the values for R & X along the way was remarkably on the mark of what the textbook might say, when adding one at a time, from no ground plane to 3 elements horizontal and/or 3 elements slanted down at 45 degrees. Of the setups with three radials installed, the ones installed slanted down showed the best match, but the horizontal radials showed me the better Field Strength.

The best match and FS results however, occurred with all six elements installed. This was three radials in the horizontal and three slanted down, all being spaced evenly. Even the field strength was improved with this setup. Here too, I recall the slanted radials showing the most current available at the tips.

Wished I was up to doing it all over and made a better record.
 
of the four basic types of end fed half wave verticals, coaxial feed with a choke, coaxial feed with a skirt, stub feed or direct feed using a lumped matching network or tuner, they all share one common trait. absent a counterpoise of some type and proper care in construction and feeding, they all induce common mode currents on the feed system. if you're not going to provide the required circuit to allow displacement currents to mirror the currents in the main radiator either in a ground mounted or elevated design (elevated, artificial ground above earth) then that's where they end up. this is not good and i know this firsthand. the matching system does not preclude the need for current flowing into the antenna end to be balanced by the total current flowing into all elements of a ground or counterpoise of some type. balance, impedance, resonance and pattern all require equal attention.

marconi, the reason i asked is because i'm intrigued by the possibility of using radial dominated end fed 1/4 wave ground planes in NVIS work implemented by the extended radials and heightened radiation angle attributes. your reminiscent foray has not gone unappreciated.
 
freecell said:
the matching system does not preclude the need for current flowing into the antenna end to be balanced by the total current flowing into all elements of a ground or counterpoise of some type.
Is not the current flow at the base of a 1/2 wave antenna zero?
 
I read that J antennas (J-pole), have a lower angle of radiation than most other popular vertical antenna's, such as the 5/8 wave...
 

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