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Best coax length

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rachet_jaw

Member
Oct 8, 2005
58
1
16
mooresville, NC
Best coax length for a 102"SS whip. I run 27.185 occasionally (about 50%) and 27.385 LSB (the other 50%)

I know the rule of thumb is 18' , but I am also a firm believer that the rule of thumb is for busting lol
 

The coax only needs to be as long as it takes to connect the radio to the antenna. It is not true that any specified length lowers SWR. It doesn't. It adds loss. Not much loss, but it adds some.

If you were to look in the ARRL Antenna Book, you would find nothing that says that coax length has anything to do with SWR. Many hams are fanatics about antennas and power loss and SWR and you can make book that if this length business were true, then even newbie Technician licensees would be taught this, there would be a question on the tests about it, formulas would be referred to, etc. But nothing exists in theory to prove this contention.
 
z

Actually, the only place I have ever heard about "coax length" is on CB boards! I "apprenticed" in radio for 6 or 7 years before I ever heard of such a thing. Then when CB became such a fad, wham! "ya gots to have a "certain" length of coax. :D HUH?

It really isn't something to fret over. Whatever it takes to ger from antenna to radio so long as the run doesn't get ridiculous.


73
CWM
 
Coax length only makes a difference is the antenna's input impedance is not the same as the feed line's and radio's. A difference in impedance produces SWR. If there's no difference in impedances then theres no SWR. Simple answer is to match impedances (or in other words, tune the stupid thing correctly!).
A 'not so simple/good' way of matching impedances is by playing with the length of feed line. Why is it 'not so simple/good'? Becasue ~all~ coaxial cable has voltage limits (what destroys coax) and using coax for a 'matching' section can mean extremely high voltages, enough to ruin the feed line. But, it's the 'quick-n-dirty' way of doing it for people who don't know how to do it correctly. Also means cable sales are higher than they need to be. Great for who ever is selling cable, don't-cha-know...
- 'Doc
 
when the transmitter section of a cb or 10 meter radio is aligned it is common procedure to use a 50 ohm load when doing so. the transmitter output impedance is fixed.

we connect the transceiver to a feedline that has a Zc (characteristic impedance) of 50 ohms. so far, so good.

in the typical tractor rig rolling down the highway we install a typical cb antenna and we measure a couple of parameters at the feedpoint of the antenna. for the sake of this example we will use values that are commonly found in this particular environment.

in our example we measure a load resistance of approximately 35 ohms and we also measure a value of capacitive reactance present at the feedpoint of -j10 or 10 ohms. the total load impedance under these conditions is approximately 36.401 ohms, making the point that load impedance consists of resistance and any reactances present at the feedpoint.

i'm assuming that we all know that any generator (or transmitter) delivers all available developed power when it sees an input impedance at the source end that matches its own.

that given, the premise is this. every length of line is a matching transformer when Zl (the load) is something other than the Zc of the line and in this case reflection is present. it is this very condition that makes all of the following possible.

assuming a line with a velocity factor of .78 % and an operating frequency of 27 mhz., we would like to determine at what points along the line (and the associated shift in phase angles) that would produce an input impedance looking into the transmitter end of the line approximating 50 ohms so that the transmitter will still produce all available developed power regardless of the mismatch present at the load.

there will not be just one spot in the line where this will occur, there will be several depending on the length of the line.

before we get to that, let's test the program that we are about to use for calibration purposes using a tuned 1/2 wave line to check for the mirroring aspect and properties of such a line. ignore the 160M band indication as this setting is not being used. the frequency is 27 mhz.

http://www.firecommunications.com/ScreenHunter_087.gif

as you can see, the tuned half wave line is mirroring the values almost exactly at the transmitter input, with slight variances due to negligible values of cable and swr losses.

now we will attempt to adjust the line length so that the standing waves on the line and the attendant phase shifts producing the variable values of impedance along the line coincide at the transmitter input to a value more closely matching the Zs or source impedance at the transmitter, namely 50 ohms.

http://www.firecommunications.com/ScreenHunter_088.gif

now the load impedance at the transmitter is exactly 50 ohms. we do however have an inductive value of reactance on the order of approximately +j18.935 ohms, preventing a more normalized input resistance but 46.276 ohms ain't that bad. the remaining inductive reactance can be cancelled easily using an open length of the same feedline in conjunction with a t-connector, the feedline input and the transmitter output to exactly cancel the remaining inductive reactance and restoring a purely resistive, non-reactive match between the input of the feedline and the transmitter. approximately 9 inches of RG-8X from T-plug to open end almost perfectly cancels the inductive reactance present at the transmitter. RG-8X exhibits roughly 25.3 pf. of capacitance for every foot (12 inches) of length. this works out to approximately 2.10833/RPT pf. per inch.

did the swr change? one might argue that the swr at the transmitter did, we'll come back to that later. what did change here is the reduction in transmitter power output created by the reflection mismatch at the load and back up the line. as you can see in the example of the tuned 1/2 wave line, the mismatch at the load is almost exactly duplicated at the transmitter. by altering the length of the line we have restored the match at the transmitter so that the reduction in transmitter power no longer exists. this doesn't happen with random lengths of line.

let's look at one more example. let's shorten the line this time. let's shorten it considerably.

http://www.firecommunications.com/ScreenHunter_089.gif

look familiar? and no hot spot problems either. if you don't like this we can try some series matching techniques using 2 feedline lengths of dissimilar impedances and we can elegantly match not only the load to the transmitter but cancel or null all reactance in the system as well in one fell swoop. these are some of the ways we deal with these situations when there's nothing else at the antenna to adjust. it can be a lot easier than you think. this is just one small example of what "the coax length thing" is all about. and before anyone mentions the fact that a 1.5:1 swr isn't that big of a deal to begin with let me add this. these and other techniques are well able to deal with much larger degrees of mismatch than the the sample presented here. fyi.

every length of feedline is a matching transformer....Cebik.
 
Well done there Freecell.
I just added a 12'6" jumper from my radio to amp tonight (mobile), it sure got things looking much better on 259 then it had with the 6 footer.

But I screwed up tho, I didn't have my reading glasses on and cut the d$$$ line 2 ft. to short, so I am 2 ft. short of the right electrical length.:x:x:x
Oh well, I might fix it on a "snowy" day this winter.

(of course my SWR (1:0:1) didn't change but the ohms dropped from 58 to 54 and the reactance from 3 to 0).
 
bandaid kid said:
The coax only needs to be as long as it takes to connect the radio to the antenna. It is not true that any specified length lowers SWR.

Bandaid kid,
I am going against the grain on the above. But try putting 2' or 3' of feedline from your radio to antenna and put a antenna analyzer on it and see what it shows. I think you find that what you are saying about what ever it takes to get to the radio will not necessarly work - at least not properly.

There isn't anything in "rachet_jaw's" topic asking about SWR's just what length of feedline to use.
But with my own experiments in using the 259 I did discover (like Freecell had mention) that a 1/4 wave length is no good.
What I did was make up two sections = 1/4 & 1/2 wave in the electrical length. Tuned the antenna (10K) with both sections and even tho the SWR stayed the same the 1/4 wave piece was up to 71 ohms, where as the 1/2 wave was at 52-54 ohms. This is with the antenna tuned on just one freq.

So it does make a difference as to what length that you use and I have seen this on my beam also. I had 15' of excess of coax but I didn't know what my total length was. So I started trimming, I got 8' cut back and everything fell right into place - R50, X0, SWR 1:1., I cut 1 ft at a time and checked.
My reading before I started was:
Swr 1:1:1 - R=54 - X=3

Well I guess that it for me, I am out of here... :D :D
Good Night.
 
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freecell,
Cibik's right but where/how did he factor in the characteristic losses of that mismatch? As in, since it's a matching section and since there are reactances present that dissipate power, how much of that 'full output' from the 'happy' transmitter actually reach the antenna to be radiated? Also, since there is a mismatch, and since some power is always dissipated in the resulting reactances, is the disipated power less than the capabilities of the feed line's handling ability? That's the problem when depending on coax as a matching section, sometimes it's abilities are exceded.
There are quite a few things that can affect a cables ability to handle power dissipation (or high voltage) and those 'things' are very 'variable' in it's production, even before you get to the installation/use producing variations.
Cibik is right, any feed line can be used as a matching section. The question is, if you don't have to do it that way, then why do it that way? The answer is, it's easier than doing it another (and in my opinion) 'better' way...
- 'Doc
 
"Also, since there is a mismatch, and since some power is always dissipated in the resulting reactances, is the disipated power less than the capabilities of the feed line's handling ability? That's the problem when depending on coax as a matching section, sometimes it's abilities are exceded."

not hardly. we're talking about cb and 10 meter radios here. even at 100 watts just how can the feedlines ability to handle dissipation be compromised by 6 - 8 watts of swr and feedline loss? it's a non-issue in the example that i am discussing here.

reflection loss (swr loss) due to any deviation in values of *resistance, *reactance or *impedance in a load not equal to Zc is simply a NON-DISSIPATIVE type of loss representing only the unavailability of power to the load due to the generator's making less power available to the line as a result of the mismatch of the *same caused originally by the conditions at the load terminating the line. period.

http://www.firecommunications.com/mismatch.txt
 
freecell,
Since when would frequency range, or band, make any difference? That 'loss' has to go somewhere, usually heat, which is just another way of ruining coax. :)
- 'Doc

PS - Believe it or not, 10 watts is enough...
 

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