hustler mag mount ants?

[triple5usb]

has anybody tried the rq43 black mag mount from hustler? looks a bit like a lil will but with a shock spring looks neat and tidy but im not sure of performance
i noted from a broken one i also have that the windings and whip dont make 9 feet and was thinking there might be something to gain by either adding a longer whip to make up the difference or a longer coil winding.

also anybody tried the small grey center loaded hustler mag ? it looks similar to the generic autozone walmart cheapo center load mags but better quality and coud also be modded possibly to make better

 

[W5LZ]

The length of the wire in the coil and whip have very little to do with 9 feet, actually not much at all. If the wire is wound into a coil it isn't the length that makes a difference it's the amount of inductance of the coil plus the length of the whip that determines where it's resonant. The total length of the wire used has no significance to the 'electrical' length of the antenna. Don't fall into that trap. To understand it you have to get a little 'deeper' into it. Everybody get's that idea about total length of wire at some point, not just you. It's a matter of how one particular part of that wire length reacts with the other parts of that wire lengths. The key word in there is 'reacts', or reactance, which comes in two flavors and when added together make zero reactance which is the definition of resonance. Confused? Hey, don't feel bad, every one is at one point, just means that you have to learn what reactance is. Sound like one'a them 'Oh Shirt' thingys? Yep, it is. Who cares, you can figure it out.
- 'Doc

 

[triple5usb]

yawn

reactance is the opposition of a circuit element to an electrical current change (or voltage), due to the element's inductance (or capacitance)

however if a 1/4 wave ant is 9 feet (aprox) 1/2 wave is 18 feet etc
and you can get mobile antennas that are ,,electricaly 1/4 wave,,
i dont get why this ant is less than a 1/4 wave (electricly and physicly) im guessing its a fraction that works like 5/8th etc etc
my point is if the perfect 1/4 wave mobile is 9 feet wouldnt it work better if i were to make the hustler 9 feet total??
i would think so other wise we would all be running physicly short neat antennas if the electrical length wasnt relevant

i realize its not the whole story but your saying the electrical length makes very little difference? surely if that were true you could spool off several random feet of wire from say a firestick not use an atm
and it will work the same which would save that company $$$$ in copper wire! plus all the calculations of wavelength would be not needed

i am curious as its broken anyway and i could easily re wind the coil to make the changes or add the longer whip i would be curious to test the two back to back to see if there is ANY difference rx/tx thats the atraction of this hobby
the endless (needless?) experimentation even though well proven equipment could be used and left well alone!

i once mixed and matched various valor half breed style parts and tested them eventually coming up with a very good working antenna over a standard one from any factory

it is strange though as some antennas seem to rx better than others but lack the tx qualitys and other are the oposite even between ones that look very similar. by mixing and matching those parts i had the best of both worlds and a high avererage for tx/rx

not being a smart ass just curious which keeps me interested in the hobby

 

[W5LZ]

A 'smart ass'? No, I don't think you are being a 'smart ass'.
What I think you are doing (or not doing?) is relating how an antenna's performance isn't strictly related to it's resonance. A dummy load is resonant, but makes a terrible emitter. The difference between an 'electrical wave length' and a 'physical wave length' is the biggy as far as the radiation pattern is concerned (how/where an antenna puts energy). While a shorter than actual 1/4 wave length can have the equivalent characteristics necessary to radiate a signal, it won't necessarily have the 'physical' characteristics necessary to make that radiation pattern in a -usable- shape/size. A non-inductive resistor can have the necessary electrical characteristics to act like a very nice antenna, except that it won't radiate worth a hoot. Right? So what's different about that resistor and a really nice radiating antenna? It's physical length. That's what produces a usable radiation pattern. Any change in that physical length, as in shortening it, means a 'shortening' of the radiation pattern, a re-shaping of that pattern. If that 'shortening' isn't very much then the change in the radiation pattern isn't very much either, but it's still there. A relative matter of degree. See how that's headed?
- 'Doc

 

[triple5usb]

yes kind of but i wasnt thinking of shortening anything rather the opposite the point or rather question i was asking if there is a yes or no answer was

do you think by making this antenna a full 1/4 wave by changing either the whip for alonger one or most likley the coil (to keep it a neat length total) it will work any better?

i imagine the whip would help but the coil im hoping will also. then i can still keep the short length

 

[W5LZ]

If you make the total length of the antenna a 1/4 wave length, then that coil isn't necessary at all. The shorter the total length is than a 1/4 wave length then the -more- coil is needed to have the right amount of inductive reactance necessary to produce resonance. So with that in mind, if you make the whip longer then a smaller the coil can be. If you make the whip a full 1/4 wave length then the coil isn't needed at all.
Does that answer your question?
- 'Doc

 

[triple5usb]

If you make the total length of the antenna a 1/4 wave length, then that coil isn't necessary at all. The shorter the total length is than a 1/4 wave length then the -more- coil is needed to have the right amount of inductive reactance necessary to produce resonance. So with that in mind, if you make the whip longer then a smaller the coil can be. If you make the whip a full 1/4 wave length then the coil isn't needed at all.
Does that answer your question?
- 'Doc

hi doc

no. im not sure why we keep getting cross wires
i am trying to explain that when the coil wire was measured and that lenth added to the whip length it is NOT a 1/4 wave length SO i am wondering if i add a longer coil wire OR make the whip longer so the TOTAL IS now a 1/4 wave i am hoping this should have an improvement??

i would prefer to lengthen the coil to keep the physical length neat

 

[W5LZ]

The length of wire needed to make that coil and the length of the whip has no relation to a 1/4 wave length, or 9 feet. The amount of inductive reactance produced by the coil, plus the amount of inductive reactance furnished by the whip is such that combined with the inherent capacitive reactance in the whip, coil, and the 'other half' of the antenna, will equal zero, they nullify each other, which is the definition of resonance. (That 'other half' of a mobile antenna is the vehicle's metal body, or radials.) The size and shape of that coil and how closely the coil windings are determine the amount of inductance (and inductive reactance) produced by the coil. The actual length of the wire has very little to do with it and has no relation to a 1/4 wave length at the frequency it'll be used for.
Take my word for it, the length of wire in that coil doesn't have any direct relationship with a 1/4 wave length. There's a formula for finding the inductance of a coil from measuring it's size. Or you can plug in the dimensions to find the size of a coil required to produce whatever inductance you want. That formula is in the ARRL's Hand Book. Play with it and see what happens.
- 'Doc

 

[M0GVZ]

hi doc

no. im not sure why we keep getting cross wires
i am trying to explain that when the coil wire was measured and that lenth added to the whip length it is NOT a 1/4 wave length

The coil is acting as a matching unit. It is there to present a 50 Ohm impedance to the antenna socket given the length of the whip. It is the length and the diameter it is to provide sufficient inductance/reactance etc to get to that 50 Ohms. The fact that the length of it added to the whip doesn't make 1/4 wave is irrelevant because it does not work in the way that you are envisaging - something that is used to lengthen the radiating portion of the whip. It is effectively acting as a transformer.

I think where your confusion is coming from is that you're thinking of things in the terms of DC voltage. When it comes to AC voltage things react differently. A balun that looks like a dead short on DC because the inner and outer of the antenna socket are directly connected works perfectly fine when RF is applied as RF is AC.

 

[The Jerk]

has anybody tried the rq43 black mag mount from hustler? looks a bit like a lil will but with a shock spring looks neat and tidy but im not sure of performance

I have owned a small magnetic Hustler, like you describe, for a while. It has performed well...as good as any of my Wilsons. I could not find the rq43 you referred to?

 

[triple5usb]

thanks jerk that was actually a helpfull reply so it sounds like an ok ,,twig,,

heres the thing i lost the ,,coil,, so would need to replace it anyways.
and nobody is actually answering me
i want to know if lengthening the coil wire OR the whip OR both will improve the rx/tx with this thing?
yes or no?

no offence to anybody and thanks for the physics lessons but i guess nobody that replied here actually really knows. i use to mess with stuff like this all the time i figured some here must do as well?

i would like to do it and report back but as i have no standard ant to compare
its not a valid test

the reason for this is i figure a discrete smaller steel whip mag on the roof should work a little better than a 4 foot flexi stik type on the fender and i dont want a stik type ant on the roof

 

[midnight special]

i want to know if lengthening the coil wire OR the whip OR both will improve the rx/tx with this thing?
yes or no?

no ,, the coil is setup to match the whip for easy set up of the swr,,,changing the coil will have to make the whip longer or shorter,,,the more coil the shorter the whip but also the less effencicy,,,, any mobile antenna with a base coil is lossy that is why load is in the middle and top loaded antennas is prefered,,, i know what you are trying to think of when you think that it should measure out to nine feet but it doesnt work like that,,,,, story for ya i had a young kid new to cb here in town,, wanted a radio and antenna setup for his 4x4 truck,, he had looked on line at a few 4x4 sites and they all told him to get a 102 inch steel whip,,,,well he contacted me and said he couldnt get his swr set by using meter on radio so i told him to stop by,, when came over he didnt have a 102 inch whip he had been talked into buying one of thoses big coil in the middle antenna,, paid 125 for he said,,, ya know 102 s dont cost that much,,,, but any way the guy in the cb shop at the truck stop had told him that was the same as a 102 inch if you measure the coil and whip ,,BS,,, i put my mfj 259 on it and got him going but he was mad when i told him the shop ripped him.... makes ya wonder if tech/salesman was ripping him or just not know how an antenna works...

 

[triple5usb]

hi m.s

yeah that is interesting i was just thinking about 1/4 waves etc and how i used to make basic antennas as a kid simply based on fractions of the full wavelength
beams virticals allsorts of stuff this is why i thought ,,well surely if i make the total 9 feet it ,,should,, work better especially if i make the difference up by using a longer whip

heres a story for you

i remember as a kid having a basic car radio antenna pluged into a cb reciever around 1979-80 in england and seeing somebody with an actual cb and a proper ,,twig,,
turned out it was a dx 27 similar to a flexi firestick helical type ant but longer like a dv27
so i thought hmmm ok so i got some copper wire stripped off all the plastic thinking that must help and wrapped it all up this steel basic am radio antenna then covered it in black tape and sure enough it looked the part all excited i pluged it in expecting huge range and it did absolutley nothing to help.

i remember a neigbour of mine asking about my base antennas and me trying to explain to him about making a long wire ant for his shortwave reciever
i told him i suspended it up with fishing wire and you attach the coax center to the long length of wire . next thing i see is him stringing fishing wire all around the garden tied to trees and the side of the house then attaching the fishing wire to his coax then complained that ,,it worked better before with the 2 foot teliscopic on the set!

live and learn

 

[The DB]

Doc answered the questions that were asked. If his answers aren't what you were looking for perhaps you asked the wrong questions.

OK, first off, the physical amount of wire that makes up a coil has nothing to do with how much the antenna is physically shortened to maintain a given electrical length. That is a measure of the coil's inductance compared to frequency, and where that inductance is on the physical length of the antenna. As an example of this take a look at the Wilson 1000 and Wilson 5000 coils. Two completely different coils that yield about the same overall physical length of antenna, they even use the same whip element.

If you already have a given location the biggest thing that determines the shortening effect the coil creates is the inductance of the coil. If you raise the inductance (increase the windings) you will have to shorten the physical length of the antenna to compensate. If you lower the inductance (or decrease the windings) you will have to make the antenna longer to compensate.

As was stated above by doc, the key element in how much an antenna is physically shortened by a coil is based on how much inductive reactance at the frequency in question the coil adds to the antenna, not how much wire was used in the coil itself. Additionally as I mentioned where that reactance on the antenna also comes into play... The inductance of the coil and the physical length of the antenna are a balancing act that is needed to maintain electrical length. Adding more coil to a resonant length without compensating for said additional coil will do nothing but move the antenna off of a resonant length.

Or better yet, build it and see what happens, although I hope you have more than an SWR meter as SWR isn't enough give you the full story of what is happening with each change by itself...

Additionally you can get the current version of the ARRL Antenna Book (22'nd Edition) and read through Chapter 9 Section 3. They talk about loading, including how big the load needs to be and how to determine the best location on the antenna to put it... The book covers the topic pretty well...


The DB

 

[triple5usb]

maybe i did ask the wrong question?

so if i lengthen the antenna to a longer overall
resonant total length should it work better?

i would think so
otherwise we would all be using 1 foot rubber ducks instead of a 9 foot steel whip!

so..... what would the next reasonable resonant length be? could it be worked out if i tell you the total coil plus whip length (except i have lost the coil)
im sure i could google the formula? i would just like to have a compact and discrete ant as poss with minimum loss in performance

ive seen the radiating pattern pics for antenna location and i know higher is better for my use