Just for the arguments sake

[N8YX]

There are several discrepancies here.

First:

The cold war started & sanctions were lifted. At the time CB and Ham shared the 11m spectrum and CB required a license.

Not true.

The 26.7-27.2 MHz range was until 1957 jointly allocated to ISM (industrial, scientific, medical) service as primary users, and the amateur radio service as secondary users.

The forerunner of 11M CB radio was the old Class A UHF service.

Next:

However, there were already certain other HF frequencies where unlicensed usage was permitted, dating back to 1938. At that time, power restrictions had been put in place to keep the communications at a short distance to avoid crossing state lines. At the time, congress only had limited ability to regulate commerce, and stuff that crossed state lines fell within certain existing laws that would preclude the feds (FCC, in this case) from allowing unlicensed operation.

The Communications Act of 1934 established within the U.S. a spectrum-governing body (the FCC) and placed all regulatory authority over such into that bureau's hands.

When what was the precurser to the modern CB service was created in 1945, the 155 mile rule was put into effect for two reasons: Because of concerns on the legality (at the time) of FCC's authority over anything that crossed state lines, and also continued concerns over espionage.

There was absolutely no doubt as to the FCC's scope of authority at this time. If someone can provide links to federal documents which state otherwise, I would love to see them.

And:

In 1959, Donald Stoner published a detailed article on how to design and construct a home made CB. At this time, it was not illegal to do so, and commercially available kits became available. By definition, CB at it's earliest stages was experimental. It wasn't until much later that the FCC decided to try and change that.

The completed 'kits' still required inspection and certification by a 1st-class Radiotelephone licensee before they could be placed on the air. Disregarding this procedure put the final nails in the experimenter's coffin, so to speak.

Further:

In 1977, when CB expanded from 23 to 40 channels, there was actually talk about expanding all the way to 27.995, but it was decided against to prevent intermod breakthrough to any 455kHz receiver that used the 455kHz IF stage.

Can someone supply a link to this material? I'm having problems with the paragraph above for a number of reasons. Foremost is the IF breakthough bit. This could be an issue with a poorly-implemented single-conversion superhet receiver, but the majority of high-end CB sets were designed in such a manner that it wouldn't pose a problem.

Lastly:

Are the same concerns that started the 155 mile limit still concerns today? I doubt it.

How about unregulated inter-country communications between unlicensed parties? In some parts of the world it is a BIG issue.

Maybe that's why the FCC doesn't enforce it.

It's not enforced because of budgetary constraints...and because The League of Decency is too busy throwing a hissy-fit over Ms. Jackson's bare breast; demanding that SOMETHING be done about it...

Remember why the FCC dropped the CB license rule?

Because they didn't have the funding and/or staffing to enforce usage of the Class D license system.

 

[weatherman49]

n8yx thank you for your in depth reply and Sonwatcher thanks for your reply very well the piont is made my next Q is pardon my ignorance but you mentioned somthin about MURS?/FRS/GMRS new to me and what frequencies are they on would I have to buy a transiever just for those 5 channels? kind of a pain in a small truck to run 4 different radios! the piont I was trying to make was that 5 channels between ch40 11m and the first couple of ch 10m were easely obtianed without havin to buy a bunch more equipment!



Why not get a ticket and join in the 10M fun? A General-class license is not all that hard to obtain...and contrary to what you might read (here and elsewhere), not all of us bite.



I've been thinking hard about it and I have downloaded several versions of practice test! is the no code test the same now for the general class not that I'm against or can't learn code but I prefer actually talking to someone don't realy have in interest in the code! least wise not at the moment but I'm finding the older I get the more I like to study! Imagine that I hated school now I wish I was back in LOL!


and as for not biting I am glad not all Hams do unlike some on this forum your post have been informative open minded and unbiased (ie you don't call me cb trash like someone else on this forum did!) anyway I am glad I started the tread have learned quite a few things I was unaware of glad to know that you guys are willing to inform and educate and not condem!!




Please excuse the spelling mistakes I'm not ignorant I only have three fingers on one hand I took typing in HS before I lost my finger so sometimes I miss a key or my hand just ain't in the right place on the keyboard!!

 

[Happy_Hamer]

I took typing in high school to be in a class with all the girls

UNFORTUNATELY 24 other guys took typing for the same reason

Please excuse the spelling mistakes I'm not ignorant I only have three fingers on one hand I took typing in HS before I lost my finger so sometimes I miss a key or my hand just ain't in the right place on the keyboard!!

 

[N8YX]

I took typing in high school to be in a class with all the girls

UNFORTUNATELY 24 other guys took typing for the same reason

We must have been classmates, then...pickins was slim indeed, eh?

 

[N8YX]

my next Q is pardon my ignorance but you mentioned somthin about MURS?/FRS/GMRS new to me and what frequencies are they on would I have to buy a transiever just for those 5 channels?

MURS is in the 150 MHz region and the rest are in the 460 MHz area. Unfortunately, that means yet more radios in the cab...

the piont I was trying to make was that 5 channels between ch40 11m and the first couple of ch 10m were easely obtianed without havin to buy a bunch more equipment!

True - and this is a good approach on paper - but such an arrangement would be misused...

I've been thinking hard about it and I have downloaded several versions of practice test! is the no code test the same now for the general class not that I'm against or can't learn code but I prefer actually talking to someone don't realy have in interest in the code!

Do what many do: Learn it - pass the test - then pitch the key afterwards. My XYL has no interest in communicating via Morse code either but will learn it in order to gain HF privileges (she's a Tech at the moment). Nothing wrong with conversing via phone modes; many folks use SSB, AM or FM exclusively.

least wise not at the moment but I'm finding the older I get the more I like to study! Imagine that I hated school now I wish I was back in LOL!

If you have to stay at a job and work the day away, school does seem mighty attractive once again - no?

and as for not biting I am glad not all Hams do unlike some on this forum your post have been informative open minded and unbiased (ie you don't call me cb trash like someone else on this forum did!)

One does not gain friends (or potential hams) by throwing barbs. I'll correct misinformation if and when I see it but I don't get into personal attacks or belittling others.

anyway I am glad I started the tread have learned quite a few things I was unaware of glad to know that you guys are willing to inform and educate and not condem!!

Some of us still remember the golden rule. And it's not the one which goes "He who has the gold...rules..."

Please excuse the spelling mistakes I'm not ignorant I only have three fingers on one hand I took typing in HS before I lost my finger so sometimes I miss a key or my hand just ain't in the right place on the keyboard!!

I type using just a few fingers. Funny, that...I currently make my living developing embedded-control software and have to type a lot. Thank goodness for cut and paste!

 

[Sonwatcher]

The FCC proposed a new SSB only CB Band from 27.410 Mhz (just above CB channel 40) to 27.54 Mhz. For this new CB allocation, the FCC proposed removing the 155 mile contact limit (thus allowing DX contacts), as well as permitting VFO’s. A non-technical test would be required for access to the CB-SSB band. Reaction, as you might guess, was strong and divided. HF “outbanders” (who worked the “10 1/2” meter band) were in favor--unlike the 220 Mhz “Class E CB” proposal a few years back, they could work skip on this new band. Or, should we say it would legitimize their present operations? The ARRL and the Amateur community were strongly opposed. Many letters in QST pointed out the intrusion of the illegal operators on the “10 1/2” meter band into the bottom part of our 10 meter band. In the end, the proposal was abandoned.

http://www.twiar.org/aaarchives/WB034.txt

 

[airplane1]

Why do the ARRL and the Amateur community always have a problem with CB? The FCC tried to help the problem and make radio better and these grippers shut it down.

People need to grow up!

AP

 

[weatherman49]

tried to post last night but server was down anyway I got lucky my typing class was mostly female!! but I managed to learn anyway got up to 60wpm until fate interviened and I lost my pinkie finger on my right hand! OOOUCH!
-------------------------------------------
If you have to stay at a job and work the day away, school does seem mighty attractive once again - no?

Wish I could sit in my shack all day and tinker with electronic junk but my wife says I have to go make a livin for her and my daughter Darn! LOL

 

[CDX8412]

Weatherman49,

MURS is a 5 channel radio service in the VHF portion of the radio spectrum. It has certain limitations that may make it worthless to some people, like the fact that it is limited to 2 watts output. Now, there are some good uses and 2 watts into a good gain antenna can get you some decent coverage, but it is not like 27 mhz CB. It's range has limits based on your terrain (hills, mountains, flatlands) and antenna.
Typically, the radios available are not cheap.
I use it with a couple of very local operators. We have gain antennas that help compensate for the power restrictions.
We do not ragchew for hours on it. Just short communications for exchange of info or to ask questions.

FRS is the service that uses those small walkie talkies sold everywhere, like at Walmart and such. Radios can put out no more than 1/2 watt of power, and can't use external antennas.
Good for camping, hunting and keeping in touch with the kids.It operates in the UHF portion of the radio spectrum.

Both MURS & FRS do not require a license, but you are required to operate within the specified regulations, just like on 27 mhz CB.

GMRS is a licensed service. You must pay $80 for a 5 year renewable license. You get a callsign and must ID with it like in the amateur radio service. GMRS is in the UHF spectrum and unfortunatly, shares some channels with FRS. This has caused a problem since yo have licensed operators (GMRS) and unlicensed operators (FRS) in the same freq range. Kind of like this whole "Freebander" versus "Ham" thing around the 10 meter band.

TO make things even worse, the FCC allowed manufacturers like Motorola, Midland and Audiovox to make FRS/GMRS walkie talkies. A small note included would state "you must obtain a license to operate on the GMRS frequencies"...yeah, right.
Like people are going to spend $80 for a license on a radio they paid $40 for. So now, licensed ($80 + the more expensive commercial radio gear they use) users get interfered with by 1/2 watt or 2 watt walkie talkies.

In government terms, it is what is referred to as a SNAFU...
Situation Normal, All F'ed Up.

In short, 27 mhz CB is a very useful service for it's intended purpose. Good for mobile use, and for local communications.
The radio waves travel quite far even at stock power, with a good antenna. And of course, it is in the HF portion of the spectrum, so if you enjoy working DX and aren't a ham, it gives you a place to play.

As always, if we show a little respect for everyone by staying within our allocated frequencies, then there should be no problems.

 

[N8YX]

Why do the ARRL and the Amateur community always have a problem with CB?

I can't speak of past experiences, but the present-day issue centers around the incursion of illegals into 10M...12M...

The amateur community at large - along with the ARRL - apparently reasoned that the potential for abuse outweighed any benefits that would be gained by the creation of a new service.

Regardless, the proposal's defeat was moot...incursions still take place.

The FCC tried to help the problem and make radio better and these grippers shut it down.

One could argue that point during CB's heyday and it would have held some water at the time...

People need to grow up!

AP

This is true for both 'camps'. Certain amateurs need to quit being vindictive, and certain CBers need to stay out of the amateur bands unless licensed to transmit on them.

Win-win.

 

[yama junk owna]

Why do the ARRL and the Amateur community always have a problem with CB? The FCC tried to help the problem and make radio better and these grippers shut it down.

People need to grow up!

AP

The ARRL's problem is they get no income at all from CB, but they get income from ham in the form of trinkits memberships etc.

The Amateur community, it's like I've posted before there are guys in this group that would bitch if you fed them ice cream on a gold spoon !

This is just my thoughts, the Fcc really screwed up when they droped the license for CB. The ARRL and the Amateur community really screwed up when they did not embrace CB and work with it! Oh well I guess that's life!

 

[Sonwatcher]

It's interesting how different rules apply for the conditions for broken rules to be changed. When Techinicians were allowed on 2 meters they were only allowed experimenter status not "communicator". They were not allowed phone priv. on the band. Regardless of the FCC rules 2 meters was flooded with Techs "communicating" on 2 meters. The Amateur community was mad that the Techs were operating as communicators when not allowed. But instead of going after these law breakers the ARRL and FCC finally accomidated them and gave them communicator status and gave them full amateur status. We can talk today about how Hams have always been law abiding citizens yet a service that many are flocking to today that allows full phone privs. was a by product of rule breaking. They recognized that the earlier need for the rules were outdated and changed them. http://www.ham-shack.com/history16.html

I wonder if the same argument could help resolve the same desire the FCC had in 1980 to help with the situation of "skip" and the mile law by wanting to dispose of both for a select amount of frequencies above 40 ?

On another note it is interesting that some of those illegal Techs in 1975 are no doubt some of the older upper class Hams today talking about CBer's illegally breaking rules and talking past the 155 mile limit. Think about it. :shock:

The end of the article on the above url ends with these words-

"So, if you meet a Technician who has been licensed since the 60's, treat him or her with dignity and respect for they have suffered and endured years of being ostricized so that todays Techinicians can enjoy full VHF/UHF privileges."

Back when this was going on they were called lawbreakers and the upper class Amateurs sent proposels to the FCC to punish them. My, how perceptions have changed.

 

[N8YX]

On another note it is interesting that some of those illegal Techs in 1975 are no doubt some of the older upper class Hams today talking about CBer's illegally breaking rules and talking past the 155 mile limit. Think about it. :shock:

And they're probably raising Cain on 14.313, 14.275 or assorted 75M frequencies even as I type this...

 

[weatherman49]

alright here we go I was't trying to get into what was or was't legal I was trying to find out why so much fuss about the 10m band when at least in my area there are no coms in some areas it is bieng used and that was explianed!

It sounds agian like the fcc mussed up with the whole GMRS thing you would think that with the problems seen between 10 and 11m that they would have separated frs and gmrs and not overlap them as they did (as Homer would say DOH!) to late now! It would be nice if the powers that be would find and allocated a band that was semi DX freindly away from both cb and amature bands and make you pass a radio etiquete type test (IE How to correctly make a call and conduct a QSO) limit the output power to 100w and actually hunt down and fine illegal ops! make it so that you would have to show prufe of liscense to even purchase the equipment and then maybe something like they do with satalite where you have to have a card activated before the equipment is operable! make the liscencse renewable (every 2 years or so) if ya don't renew bam they disable your card! If you don't operate correctly bam disable your card! I honestly believe that if the fcc and other govening bodies wanted to they could make these kind of things work!

Any ideas from you guys on such a system It may never come about but stranger things have happened and maybe some day we can all look back and say man I had a good Idea that day!!

 

[weatherman49]

Here is another idea!!

Instead of fighting maybe some hams could invite some of there local cb ops over show them whats possible by getting the ticket and introducing them to a new way of thinking! you know something informal like a grill out with the equipment set up outside! shoot if they were to do that down here I'd be the first one there! anyway just another one of my out of the blue thoughts!!