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New antenna from Sirio Gain-Master
- Thread starter dxswe
- Start date
This is just a very limited observation about this antenna and really doesn't pertain to much of anything at all. Take it for what it's worth.
I've always heard that Sirio didn't make the most 'robust' antennas around, they were sort of 'barely adequate' mechanically. From what I can see in the pictures, this thing may be more 'robust' than normal, maybe? It appears to be at least as mechanically sound as a number of other brand antennas I've had experience with. I think before I'd say anything definite that I'd like to get my hands on one and shake it, but from general appearance, it doesn't look 'flimsy'. Is it?
- 'Doc
(and naturally, you could always make it 'better' by painting it pink...)
I've always heard that Sirio didn't make the most 'robust' antennas around, they were sort of 'barely adequate' mechanically. From what I can see in the pictures, this thing may be more 'robust' than normal, maybe? It appears to be at least as mechanically sound as a number of other brand antennas I've had experience with. I think before I'd say anything definite that I'd like to get my hands on one and shake it, but from general appearance, it doesn't look 'flimsy'. Is it?
- 'Doc
(and naturally, you could always make it 'better' by painting it pink...)
B
BOOTY MONSTER
Guest
Me likey!
That antenna is just plain SEXY! The Italians do EVERYTHING sexy, shoes, women, Ferraris, Lamborghini's, and now Antennas!
If LOOKS alone give antennas any appreciable amount of PERFORMANCE, then this should be the WORLD'S BEST PERFORMING BASE ANTENNA.
However, an antenna's performance is based upon it's LENGTH: PERIOD.
Anything else is just to match it to 50 ohm load.
If the radiating section is 1/2 wave long, whether it's end fed or center fed, it will only operate (perform) as a 1/2 wave vertical, no better no worse.
If it's about 21 feet or so long, then it's about a 5/8 wave antenna. It will only provide as much gain as a 5/8 is capable of (with or without internal capacitance)
If it's 24 feet long, then it's a .64 or .675 wavelength antenna.
I get the 'feeling' from what I've seen that this antenna is just an end fed 1/2 wave, so it should work about as well as a Ringo (Cushcraft AR-10?) antenna. All the rest appears to be fancy marketing and/or a legitimate attempt to provide a 50 ohm match (and/or broadbanding) to coax cable feed.
Cushcraft Ringo = Chevrolet/Ford/Dodge
Sirio GainMaster = Ferrari (so much SEXIER!)
(Note to self: now, where did I leave my hand-made Italian men's dress shoes? They hurt my feet, but damn are they SEXY!) (wink!)
That antenna is just plain SEXY! The Italians do EVERYTHING sexy, shoes, women, Ferraris, Lamborghini's, and now Antennas!
If LOOKS alone give antennas any appreciable amount of PERFORMANCE, then this should be the WORLD'S BEST PERFORMING BASE ANTENNA.
However, an antenna's performance is based upon it's LENGTH: PERIOD.
Anything else is just to match it to 50 ohm load.
If the radiating section is 1/2 wave long, whether it's end fed or center fed, it will only operate (perform) as a 1/2 wave vertical, no better no worse.
If it's about 21 feet or so long, then it's about a 5/8 wave antenna. It will only provide as much gain as a 5/8 is capable of (with or without internal capacitance)
If it's 24 feet long, then it's a .64 or .675 wavelength antenna.
I get the 'feeling' from what I've seen that this antenna is just an end fed 1/2 wave, so it should work about as well as a Ringo (Cushcraft AR-10?) antenna. All the rest appears to be fancy marketing and/or a legitimate attempt to provide a 50 ohm match (and/or broadbanding) to coax cable feed.
Cushcraft Ringo = Chevrolet/Ford/Dodge
Sirio GainMaster = Ferrari (so much SEXIER!)
(Note to self: now, where did I leave my hand-made Italian men's dress shoes? They hurt my feet, but damn are they SEXY!) (wink!)
Shockwave have you received your Gain Master yet. I was hoping that Dxswe would have some reports by now, but no word. I'm anxious to hear some good news about this antenna. Hope you can also get us some good photos. Dxswe's pictures were great, but it would be great with the radiator straightened out a bit so we can see the portions and its relationship to the fiberglass a little better.
At first I thought the connector in the coax was due to handling, to prevent having to bend the coax which has a warning in the manual, but after seeing Dxswe's pictures, I'm not too sure about that idea. Why do you think Sirio found it necessary to add the connector at that point?
I have played with an Exnec model of a 1/2 wave dipole that came with the software. I adjusted it to work on the CB band and generated the free space reports for SWR, Currents and Phase, Pattern and Gain, and Wires. With it resonant at 27.205 it shows R=71.9 X=<.09 with all currents in phase, with max gain on the horizon at 2.13 dbi.
When I increased the radiator element length about 2.6 feet to make it about 5/8 wavelength at 27.205, the reports show R=173.2 X=358.3 with all currents still in phase with max gain on the horizon at 2.43 dbi.
I also noted a small dip in the current indication in the 5/8 wave antenna view that seems to suggest something similar to what Sirio notes in their bandwidth curve---a little dip in the middle. I'm not sure that this is relative to anything, but this dip does show up on the 5/8 wave antenna view and doesn't show on the resonant 1/2 wavelength antenna. I will post the antenna views so you can see this dip in the current indications.
I also note that all currents remain in phase on the 5/8 wavelength like Sirio indicates. The 5/8 wave also shows more current flowing all the way across the entire 5/8 wave radiator, which to me suggests more RF to radiate. I also noticed an increase in current on the first three segments on both sides of the center segment which is noted as "1" amp. This is apposed to decreasing currents in the same first three segments on both sides of the resonant 1/2 wave model---from the center segment all the way to the open end of each element the current decreases as we would imagine.
My model shows no signs of error in segments or geometry. I did not match either antenna, they are free space models with no ground affects, and I have no feed line or mast attached. I also did not have wire loss turned on. I do not know how all of this would affect the antenna results if real world controls and matching are applied, but I suspect things will be different somehow. Maybe some of you guys that know the in's and out's of Exnec can do something in this regard, so we can better see what Exnec can do that we might understand.
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"Sexy" is right! I'd buy one just because it looks so cool and NO RADIALS!!! Especially if it provides a 'wopper' of a signal! - Ah oh, in bad taste. :blushing:
Marconi, I believe the dip you're seeing in the center might be the current phase beginning around 67.5° then crossing 90° as if they have phase-stretched the center between two ¼ wave elements where they have added the center two 1/16 wave lengths (1/8 wl total) required to have 5/8 wl instead of only a center-fed ½ wl.
Especially if it provides a 'wopper' of a signal! - Ah oh, in bad taste. :blushing:Marconi, I believe the dip you're seeing in the center might be the current phase beginning around 67.5° then crossing 90° as if they have phase-stretched the center between two ¼ wave elements where they have added the center two 1/16 wave lengths (1/8 wl total) required to have 5/8 wl instead of only a center-fed ½ wl.
"Sexy" is right! I'd buy one just because it looks so cool and NO RADIALS!!!
Marconi, I believe the dip you're seeing in the center might be the current phase beginning around 67.5° then crossing 90° as if they have phase-stretched the center between two ¼ wave elements where they have added the center two 1/16 wave lengths (1/8 wl total) required to have 5/8 wl instead of only a center-fed ½ wl.
You may be right 007. I was just surprised to see that dip in the 5/8 wave dipole model I made using Exnec. I saw something similar in the bandwidth curve for the GM that Sirio presented.
I was also surprised to see other similar results that Sirio showed us for the GM. They looked to be right on mark when compared to the 5/8 wave model of the I-10K I made using thin wires. All the trends they noted in their modeling seemed to be present in my model of the I-10K too, and in particular the comparison parts where Sirio makes a note with the area marked up in yellow. The area they suggest shows a better response on the horizon.
IMO, what Sirio shows us are all free space models. When Mother Earth enters the mix though---things begin to change. That said, my Eznec 5/8 wave dipole model shows a narrow lobe maximum gain pattern over real Earth @ 8 degrees, and a little gain at 4 and even less at 2 degrees, but no gain on the horizon like Sirio would have us believe. IMO, with some nice gain at low angles, the simple profile, and the seeming heavy duty fiberglass---the GM should prove to be a better antenna than the A99 and Imax---if the price is right.
I don't think the Sirio Gain-Master will go-over big however, if it's much over a $100 US.
I'm surprised we haven't hear anything from Shockwave about his new MG, and what happened to to our new member Dxswe? I see he put his antenna up on his house, but no reports as yet. Must be the weather.
I think CB is dying off more every day.
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Maybe in the USA it's seeing a significant decline, however, locally I've heard a number of newer (and returning older) operators on the band, which I find encouraging.
Didn't dxswe mention it was $175 USD? That's not bad, a little high for many on a Maco budget but I like what I see. My concern is the fiberglass building corona noise and it doesn't appear there's a ground shunt from the radiator (I hope I'm wrong about that) so it may end up being another noisy IMAX-type but with better TX.
Tx is important, though I can always switch-on an amplifier, but what good is more Tx power if I can't hear who's returning?
I sure hope someone with an Imax 2000 tries this out and reports that it is a much better Rx & Tx performer and 'quieter'!
I'd also love to hear from an I-10K user that it is a better performer, or at least neck-n-neck! I love the no-radials design. Perfect for my pine tree!
If I could find who's carrying them maybe I should be the one to compare it against a Penetrator500 and report.
I'm a little disappointed it's only .625, I know I'd be tempted to try building it .015 longer - and can you imagine one 46' tall housing two (center-fed) 5/8 - .64 elements!
Imagine the capture area & gain!
Didn't dxswe mention it was $175 USD? That's not bad, a little high for many on a Maco budget but I like what I see. My concern is the fiberglass building corona noise and it doesn't appear there's a ground shunt from the radiator (I hope I'm wrong about that) so it may end up being another noisy IMAX-type but with better TX.
Tx is important, though I can always switch-on an amplifier, but what good is more Tx power if I can't hear who's returning?
I sure hope someone with an Imax 2000 tries this out and reports that it is a much better Rx & Tx performer and 'quieter'!
I'd also love to hear from an I-10K user that it is a better performer, or at least neck-n-neck! I love the no-radials design. Perfect for my pine tree!
If I could find who's carrying them maybe I should be the one to compare it against a Penetrator500 and report.
I'm a little disappointed it's only .625, I know I'd be tempted to try building it .015 longer
- and can you imagine one 46' tall housing two (center-fed) 5/8 - .64 elements!Imagine the capture area & gain!
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Try an end-fed 5/8 and see if you still get that center dip in the current. It should show a perfect 1/2 wave current node over a 1/8 wave reverse current node.
Getting rid of the reverse current node by driving and phasing it as have Sirio is possibly at least partly why it attains a lower TOA in comparison to an end-fed 5/8, and why I feel the Penetrator may have it over most 5/8 as it is a full .64 plus the elevated radials may peel off the strongest part of the bottom reverse 1/8 wave current helping both the gain & lowering the TOA.
Conjecture? Yes, but seemingly performance proven.
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I’m anxiously awaiting some actual owner reports on this antenna. I called H&Y a few weeks ago and they said they would be available this month (Nov). They aren’t listed on the web site yet. It’s a very interesting concept, and I for one hope the “no radial” design proves to work well. But… it almost looks too good to be true. I don’t want it bad enough to be a beta tester though; so I’ll wait for some feedback from actual users. I have searched the net but have found very little usable info.
Try an end-fed 5/8 and see if you still get that center dip in the current. It should show a perfect 1/2 wave current node over a 1/8 wave reverse current node.
Getting rid of the reverse current node by driving and phasing it as have Sirio is possibly at least partly why it attains a lower TOA in comparison to an end-fed 5/8, and why I feel the Penetrator may have it over most 5/8 as it is a full .64 plus the elevated radials may peel off the strongest part of the bottom reverse 1/8 wave current helping both the gain & lowering the TOA.
Conjecture? Yes, but seemingly performance proven.
+1 007, I think you hit the nail on the head :headbang
007, I think the dip in the current node is due to the increased length of the balance dipole to 5/8 wavelength and you probably won't see a dip appear in an end fed 5/8 wave just like you suggest.
I modeled my I-10K at 22.6' and at 23.15' to see what affect it had in free space vs. Eznec's real Earth setting. I made it a .64 wavelength for those that are interested. I tried to model your Penetrator, but I don't have enough segments to avoid segment errors in all the elements.
Click here: http://www.worldwidedx.com/members/marconi-albums-i-10k-625-vs-i-10k-64.html
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I didn't post my pattern view with gain and angle results earlier for the 5/8 wave dipole in free space, but in that case the gain and angle were better than for both the 5/8 and the .64 wl I-10K's. I'm not one to put much stock in free space models, but they probably do provide some trend lines that can be considered when comparing such simple antennas.
I also re-did my 5/8 wave dipole and made it vertical as an example of how the GM may be working. I will post those results soon.
It will also be interesting to note the similarities in my models when compared to the examples shown in the Sirio's spread on the Gain Master.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6808/625wavedipole.jpg
I can't predict how well the GM will work in the real world, and I don't expect "Wooper" type results, but if this modeling is close---the GM might make a difference that can be detected if you're careful in your observations. Since Sirio does not claim a significant gain advantage with the GM over a typical 5/8 wave, a lot will depend on how important their suggestion is---for lowering the maximum angle of radiation really is to performance. IMO Sirio's models are free space models only and the affects by Mother Earth are not reflected in their conclusions.
I will also include my 5/8 dipole model over Eznec's real Earth setting as well. That, I think is the surprise in the pudding.
I also re-did my 5/8 wave dipole and made it vertical as an example of how the GM may be working. I will post those results soon.
It will also be interesting to note the similarities in my models when compared to the examples shown in the Sirio's spread on the Gain Master.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6808/625wavedipole.jpg
I can't predict how well the GM will work in the real world, and I don't expect "Wooper" type results, but if this modeling is close---the GM might make a difference that can be detected if you're careful in your observations. Since Sirio does not claim a significant gain advantage with the GM over a typical 5/8 wave, a lot will depend on how important their suggestion is---for lowering the maximum angle of radiation really is to performance. IMO Sirio's models are free space models only and the affects by Mother Earth are not reflected in their conclusions.
I will also include my 5/8 dipole model over Eznec's real Earth setting as well. That, I think is the surprise in the pudding.
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