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Which amp to go with

Yes it would be dirtier..

First off let me state that when an amplifier adds parts to or removes parts of the input signal, that is distortion. Since the transistors in class C amps conduct less than 180 deg. of the full waveform, the clipping of the waveform (missing parts) is a big part of what causes the distortion. If you take a sine wave, as an example, and clip better than half of it, you only get part of the original waveform back, (and a small part at that) but the points at which the wave is clipped form sub-waveforms that are at multiples of the original frequency. This is harmonic distortion. When you increase the bias current and/or voltage, the transistor begins to reproduce more and more of the waveform until, with class A amps, the full input waveform is reproduced exactly. This is the best possible design, since there are no missing parts of the waveform, but requires the most current.

Typically, what a conscientious operator wants is full power, with the least amount of trash (spurious emissions like harmonics and splatter). This is easily obtained with properly driven class A circuitry. Even with class A though, if you overdrive the amp it will cause distortion just like class C amps. Class B amps are dirtier and more efficient than class A by a large margin, but they are cleaner than class C. Class AB is a compromise between class A and class B, resulting in a good balance between cleanliness and efficiency.

Now my understanding of IMD is a bit limited, but as I understand it when a transistor passes the threshold between it's "off" state and it's "on" state (the point at which it starts conducting), at that instant the transistor's output is not always perfectly faithful to the input waveform. I think of it like what happens when you flip a switch. Often there is a spike of power at the instant the switch engages. This is more pronounced when there is a lot of current involved. When there is a large signal entering a transistor, every time it switches on (which happens every cycle) a tiny spike is generated. This train of spikes becomes it's own signal superimposed on the main signal, which is distortion. IMD is much less of a problem at low drive levels, and becomes a BIG problem when an amp is overdriven.
 
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Yeah, I new that class A used 360* of the waveform and class B 180*, leaving C below B and AB between A&B. I guess I just wasn't sure, or maybe I was, what exactly happened to the missing part of the signal. I think the key part of running class C is the filtering, or lack there of in the competition style amps, to keeping unwanted signals out of stuff it wasn't meant to be in.

Good info BTW Eagle.
 
Tnx, I hope it helped! Sorry I kept editing over and over. I kept finding better ways of explaining things as I understand them..
 
...I've long been of the opinion that, given the extremely low cost of a rudimentary bias scheme and integral low-pass filtering, unfiltered class C boxes are really a bad idea. I've never been able to figure out why there are so many floating around.. Is it so the manufacturers save the $5-10 that the bias circuit and 11m LPF cost? Is it because the buyers can't be bothered to drop the extra few bucks for a cleaner amp? IDK.. it's just never made much sense to me...

If the competition amp manufacturers changed bias and added filtering then their customers couldn't get on the forums and brag that they have a 2 pill that does 800 watts pep. :thumbdown: :LOL:

Good info you posted - if only more people would look at it that way, but most are only concerned with the (big) numbers they see on their meter...even if the majority of it is IMD and harmonics...
 
Wow, Thanks for all the good input. I never knew why some people didn't like class C amps, other then them saying they were'nt as clean so ( I just got schooled ) lol... But that is really good stuff.
So What should I be Looking for. A class AB like TNT or older messenger maybe a palomar ( new or used better? ) or something else...
If I understand correctly, if I go with a better class amp. I can go with lower watts because they transmit more wave in the correct carrier so it will sound just as loud as a class c with more watts? And it wont splatter everything else!
 
So What should I be Looking for. A class AB like TNT or older messenger maybe a palomar ( new or used better? ) or something else...
If I understand correctly, if I go with a better class amp. I can go with lower watts because they transmit more wave in the correct carrier so it will sound just as loud as a class c with more watts? And it wont splatter everything else!
I *think* TNT amps are only class B, not AB, but somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

Again, somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but the class C will sound louder because of the distortion. Some distortion in broadcast is intentionally added to increase the perceived volume. A good example would be commercials on radio and TV.

I've only ever owned 1 transistor mobile amp, and I'm not even currently using that, so I could wrong for sure. I've owned 4 or 5 base tubers, so I guess I've just never really paid much attention to the pill boxes.
 
If I understand correctly, if I go with a better class amp. I can go with lower watts because they transmit more wave in the correct carrier so it will sound just as loud as a class c with more watts? And it wont splatter everything else!

In reality, a lot of the "loudness" associated with audio from class C amps is caused by distortion.. It's kind of like what happens when you add distortion to a guitar. The sound feels "louder"..

Basically one must choose whether they want balls-to-the-wall power on their meter and all the distortion, dirt and trash that comes with it, or if they want slightly less power on the meter (and it's typically not a HUGE difference really..), but CLEAN power that is confined to the frequency you are using.

You are correct though, with unfiltered class C amps much of the power that is measured at full drive is from harmonics, which lend nothing to your ability to "get out" on the frequency you're trying to use..

And yes, according to TNT their amps are class B, but that's still an improvement over class C.
 
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...Some distortion in broadcast is intentionally added to increase the perceived volume. A good example would be commercials on radio and TV...

I agree that the addition of distortion will increase the perceived volume, but I also think that the use of compression also increases the perceived volume of commercials. ;)
 
I agree that the addition of distortion will increase the perceived volume, but I also think that the use of compression also increases the perceived volume of commercials. ;)

I was under the impression that compression did increase distortion. Clipping more so than limiting, but distortion all the same.
 
I didn't know that compression added distortion to the signal. I know that a high input level will cause distortion due to clipping, but thought that compression clipping improved the signal by eliminating some of the peaks that could cause distortion. I guess the day isn't a complete waste...I learned something new. :laugh:
 
Not all distortion is bad sounding.. but ANY alteration (save for being larger or smaller in amplitude) of the original signal is distortion, no matter how small or large, or what the cause.
 
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smp440 , what radio are you using that does 10 watts pep ?

ill parrot the others and suggest something with a bias for modulated signals too . a older cobra or messenger 4 pill is about as good as solid state cb amps get from what i can tell . some of the palomars were good , but you need to look inside them to see if they're just class c or have biasing and filtering . texas star amps have been around for a long time , are plenty clean for ssb , but arn't designed to be overdriven like the "competition amps" .
 
I didn't know that compression added distortion to the signal. I know that a high input level will cause distortion due to clipping, but thought that compression clipping improved the signal by eliminating some of the peaks that could cause distortion. I guess the day isn't a complete waste...I learned something new. :laugh:

For AM signal, you want negative peak compression so the RF power doesnt get pinched off to zero. Because thats where the splatter comes from: the abrupt switching of RF power.
Usually this negative peak problem is from the CB transmitter, and any amplifier after that will just make all that splatter stronger.
On the other side is positive power peaks of AM. Its not a bad thing to have high positive peaks, its what makes you loud.
RF power amplifiers dont "clip" when you drive them hard, their gain just starts to drop the harder you drive them. The techno term is "one DB compression point", which is the power rating of an amplifier. Driving an RF amplifier beyond its 1dB compression point with AM signal wont cause any splatter to speak of, its the under-driving on negative peaks that needs attention.
 
Dudmuck, Is that why everyone was doing the negative peak mod on the older galaxy type radios...
Still great information from everyone. Thanks again
 
Well thanks to all went with a Dave Made, found a great deal on it and remember I'm not driving it hard.
It seems to be fairly clean as we tested it..
Now I know it will create some fead back but its not bleading channels or interference with radios or TV's
 

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