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Tuning jumpers and coax length

Does the length matter or not


  • Total voters
    136
O(

It simply isn't necessary to fiddle with an exact length of coax.
Mostly you will find this discussion on CB boards. Now, if you want to get "technical", or *impress* your friends by throwing out all those formulas, that's fine. However, when you get right down to it, you would not be able to tell the difference in performance after doing all those abbra cadabara formulas. There is no need to worry about the VF of coax; it sounds good, but it simply means the speed at which a signal passes thru a solid medium. Period.

How 'bout this formula? "Coax length is a length equal to and proportional to that which will reach from radio to antenna!"
;)

CWM
 
You see what I mean Cheech ? .....You get'in out dude ? are you pleased with the radio checks you have been getting ? are you pleased with what the SWR meter tells you ? ......like I said earlier Cheech ......I really don't care other then what the SWR meter tells me at the radio or the antenna if I can check it there ......I've used Wilson's and 96 inchers and 102 inchers off and on for 20 years ....Wilson's come with 17 ft /the other 2 usually like about 20ft .....it may not be perfect ? but it has worked for me for decades ...If one must get truly deep on the subject ? .....so be it !! ....Now I read all that know how and I still refuse to let it drive me crazy because I use 22ft RG-8 mini with a 3ft jumper of the same (radio to amp) off a Wilson 5000 drill through .....my readings or good from both amp and radio and IM talking all over the cotten pick'in U.S of A !! ....and yes I had to cut it that way....Am I truly at lose here ? .....question is ...How much ? .....apparently not enough to go spend more money to find out. It works and has worked well !! .....If I have been doing it wrong for all these years ? I must be one lucky guy !! ....always have ran amps years at a time ...NEVER !! burnt up anything in all this time .......all in half a dozen or so cars and trucks .......If this stuff is truly that important to anyone ? ......So be it !! ......Mans got to do what mans got to do ....out of millions of cb radio operators in this world .....I wonder how many truly go so deep ? Hmmmmm but this is a radio Forum on the Internet .....I bet there's more people who have cb radios then they do PC's on the Internet as well. IM not knocking Einstien's theroy of what is right and what is wrong here ......I suppose I just don't feel the need to go there at this time. Hell !!! I already heard it a long time ago anyway. (-:
 
The poll questions are asking the wrong question and only serve to confuse a confusing subject more!

Let's make this really really simple:

FACTS:
1: SWR is a measurement between the FEEDLINE and the antenna at the FEEDPOINT of the antenna (not the radio, not the SWR meter, etc!)

2: If your antenna is 44' from your radio, at 27MHz your coax should be 44' long. Yes, its really that simple.

3: If your SWR "changes" with different lengths of coax, you have a problem at the FEEDPOINT of the antenna. Fix that FIRST!

4: Coax length MATTERS if you are making up PHASING LINES.

5: To see the ACTUAL SWR at the FEEDPOINT, without actually being at the feedpoint, requires electrical 1/2 wave lengths of feedline at a SPECIFIC frequency! (It won't be accurate at any other frequency other than the one the coax is cut to!)

6: The correct formula to determin the FULL WAVE LENGTH (in inches) of a SIGNAL in FREE SPACE is: 11802.8/MHz
(Example: 11802.8 / 27.205 = 433.8467 inches. Divided by 2 and you get 1/2 wave in FREE SPACE)

7: Once you know your SIGNAL FREE SPACE length, you can determin your ELECTRICAL length in coax my multiplying the velocity factor of your coax.
Example: For channel 20, a half wave is 216.9233 inches.
216.9233 x .85 = 184.3848 inches for LMR-400.
216.9233 x .66 = 143.1694 inches for RG-213.
216.9233 x .78 = 169.2002 inches for RG-8X (foam)
(In feet for LMR-400 its, 184.3848 / 12 = 13.3654 feet)

8: If the feedpoint is correct, and you are not phasing antennas, ANY length of coax will work just fine!

This formula has worked really well over the years for phasing high power AM transmitter towers/antennas around the world. Some FM transmitters as well.

Walter Maxwell wrote a fantastic book and was a good friend to many of us! I highly recommend you buy his book!
 
One thing I forgot to add:

Coax is an imperfect medium. In a single 1000' roll of coax, the velocity factor of that cable can change! Sorry, nothing in this world is perfect. Heliax is better and waveguides are better yet.

The only correct way to make electrical half wave lengths of coax is with quality test equipment. The MFJ-259B will work OK, but its no HP!
 
Great post MC. As for the question yeah there not great I was in a hurry and it was late, ow well. I should have asked if it will throw your tunning off, like I have heard some people say it will fool your meter if its not the right length. I am just going by what I have heard to try and figure out how to cut the coax so when I need to make a coax length I will be doing it right and not mess a bunch of things up. I have blown way to meny finals to fool around anymore.
 
Wow !!! Blown finals !!! I had know idea Cheech )-: I guess those SWR meters have been really lying to you over the years !! ?? ......as I said before ....Guess I've just been one lucky cb bozo over the years ? I have bought many a radio and changed many a radio's finals ....but not my own, I do realize that bad SWR will cause final exstiction in many cases ....reflection if you will ....what can't get out ...stays in and BAM !!! bye bye final .....Hmmmm .......just makes be wonder how bad is bad to cause blown finals and how quick ? I've seen guys runnings strong 2's with power on the side for years .....and they still got out and even if they did burn something up ? it took years for them to do it !! ....or just too many damned drunks behind the microphone and not knowing when to give it a rest......Wow !! What's a guy to do ? ....You think you got it bad ? .....Shoot man !! ...I drive a walkie-talkie for a car ......GEO METRO .....I bet my Wilson is damned near as long as my car or close to it ....not much of a ground plane there huh ? (-: ....weather I got to much coax or not enough ? I get every last drop of 400 watts out of that little dude !!! (and what I don't know hasn't hurt me as of yet ,and yet has been a while now) IM not patting myself on the back here ,but more folks tend to think IM a base station then not .....shooting skip I tell them .....just me and my little Geo Metro !! .....most laugh and can't believe it or they are blown away !! I just don't seem to understand the seriousness of it all ? .....but then again ...I like echo boards and noise toys and even a cap and resistor mod from time to time ....Hell !! I just run the 11 meter band for that reason on a back pocket cb radio to begin with ....I always thought it might be neat to see or smell some smoke ......but no joke .....it hasn't happened yet.I guess IM just not sure what you mean by fooling around there Cheech ? ......It wasn't until the Internet and forums like these on just how serious this stuff is concerning others ? ...I could see if I was a Ham and had 1000s of dollars worth of equipment (if I did ,I could afford to dabble more into what was right and wrong concerning my thousands of dollars invested) .......if i had to get into why this and why that and why this is wrong and that is right in the beginning ......knowing me it would have been a total turn off. Like most ....I went down to my local TG&Y and baught a Cobra 19 ...and got me one of those Bo and Luke Duke trunk mounts from my local Radio Shack ....man I was cool now !! ...but then "they' started to tell me I needed more audio .....baught me a Astatic minute man power mic ....."they" told me I was little louder but now I needed to take that 19 and have it tuned up ....now I was do'in my thing according to "they" ......(-: Well you know what came after that right ? You bet'cha !! ...but then I had to get rid of my Bo and Luke Duke special ....then came the love of my life in a Wilson 1000 drill through (somethings never change) ...the only thing i was told after that was to make sure my SWR was below 1.5 or lower and I'd be in like flint ....."they" were right some 20 years later (-: and a few radios/amps and antenna's after the fact. Like I said before .....I may not be doing everything right according to Einstine's formula on what is right .....but being a 11 meter outlaw in the eye's of others.....IM still having fun after all these years. (-: So maybe size does count here ? .....but I really think it's how one uses it to there advantage is what really counts in the end. Peace Switch Kit .........Oh yeah !! Who was it that said that CB'ers made there own rules around here ? Wow !! by golly I think you might just have something there
 
In a "perfect" enviroment then NO coax length will not a make a difference. But if you have a mismatch or reflected power then yes it will make a difference. It will also make a difference if an antenna is lacking counterpoise, ie fiberglass top etc. etc. Between amplifiers or radio and amplifier it will make a difference if the input and the output are not a true 50 ohm match at the desired frequency.
 
When a transmission line is terminated with an impedance, ZL, that is not equal to the characteristic impedance of the transmission line, ZO, not all of the incident power is absorbed by the termination. Part of the power is reflected back so that phase addition and subtraction of the incident and reflected waves creates a voltage standing wave pattern on the transmission line.

The ratio of the maximum to minimum voltage is known as the Voltage Standing Wave Ratio (VSWR) and successive maxima and minima are spaced by 180° (l /2).

Also of considerable interest is the mismatch loss. This is a measure of how much the transmitted power is attenuated due to reflection. It is given by the following equation:


Mismatch Loss = -10 log ( 1 - r2 )

For example, an antenna with a VSWR of 2:1 would have a reflection coefficient of 0.333, a mismatch loss of 0.51 dB, and a return loss of 9.54 dB (11% of your transmitter power is reflected back).

In some systems this is not a trivial amount and points to the need for components with low VSWR.

only in situations where the length of the feedline is sufficient to introduce substantial amounts of loss is it absolutely necessary to measure swr at the feedpoint of the antenna itself as under these conditions the line (and the excessive length) will create an illusion of having a better antenna VSWR than is actually the case.

for the short lengths that are commonly used by most of us in mobile applications measurements at emax/emin points at the appropriate electrical 1/2 wave intervals are more than sufficient, providing of course that the feedline is 180° in length or longer to begin with.

for example, when working with 50 ohm feedline there is a range of real impedances available along the length of the line from roughly 33 - 75 ohms when the measured swr is 1.5:1. the correlation between the range and the swr is directly related. reactance aside for the moment, since these abnormal dynamic impedance values are available along the line then being able to determine the spots in the line where emax/emin gives values of impedance closer to 50 ohms can be used to restore full output when the feedline is terminated at these points at the source.

the question then becomes, are there also wider ranges of real impedance points along the line at even higher levels of swr? the answer to this question is yes. and there are non-resonant antenna designs in the cb market. one that comes to mind is the francis line of antennas. while in a given situation where the manufacturers recommendation in reference to the required feedline length is completely ignored, as in the case where a 12' foot line of RG8M is installed instead of the recommended 18' length of the same type of feedline, measured swr at the source can rise as high as 3:1 depending on the end of the 40 channel band that we're talking about. in retrospect, when the 12' foot line is replaced with 18' feet of the same feedline we see the swr across the band drop significantly with all channels showing below 1.3:1, the best match in the center of the band and rising slightly at the ends. here is one actual and specific instance where the "whatever it takes" approach simply just doesn't work. this isn't the only one.

it's clear here that even at an swr as high as 3:1 that there is a real range of available dynamic impedance values along the line from at least 16.66 - 150 ohms that when used with a non resonant antenna design can be length adjusted to improve the match but more importantly to allow the transmitter to see some value of impedance closer to the required 50 ohms that is required to facilitate maximum transfer of available developed transmitter power. excessive swr measured at the feedpoint in and of itself is not the problem, since ALL POWER developed by the transmitter is ultimately absorbed and radiated, regardless of the match. and here is the REAL PROBLEM. the problem IS the reduction of power developed into the load due to the reflection mismatch presented there.

the mismatch loss represented by a 3:1 swr is roughly 25%. however, if we can restore the impedance that the transmitter sees looking into the feedline at the termination point to something that more closely resembles 50 ohms we can eliminate a large portion of the mismatch loss. at that point the antenna has no choice but to absorb and radiate. the swr is still 3:1 as measured at the feedpoint but now there is negligible reduction in transmitter power.

now, coming back to reactance, either inductive or capacitive values can be cancelled by the use of stubs. an open stub under 1/4 wavelength can be used to cancel inductive reactance and a shorted stub can be used to cancel capacitive reactance.

these are but a few of the many principles that when applied allow what most of us would consider to be ridiculous levels of swr to be tolerated at frequencies in the ghz. band involving satellite and space communications without a second thought.

amazingly enough, it's the very existence of reflection from the load present on the line to begin with that allows us to make it all work, regardless of the particular solution applied. just another example attesting to the fact that swr is not the be all end all indicator to efficient antenna performance, something else that Maxwell alluded to in his writings/papers and lectures.
 
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Reactions: Shadetree Mechanic
Nice post freecell! Thanks for saving me from knocking the dust off the tech-books.
Your information is not inconsistant with what I have learned over the years. :D
 
Yeah SK I have blown to meny 1969s! And now that there is not shop close to replace anything I have got to get things right! When most of the final went on me it was quick! I mean as soon as I keyed that was that and then that smell that almost everyone knows hit me :shock: :? Back whe I had no base antenna and was running a antenna off the AC unit it was an all to often thing! I mean I had the thing tuned down to 1:3! Yeah beleive it or not it was a fire stick with the tunable tip. It worked good for what it was but I was talking and then the radio squealed like no other. At the time I was talking to one of the local bases. When that hapend I turned the radio off right away and then I turned it back on becouse I was ticked off so I turned the squelch down and it stoped. I have no idea why. So I tryed to talk agin and I had no swing. The guy I was talking to said throw the meter in line and see what the swr is. It was still 1:3? :shock: So the shop told me the meter was not giving me a good reading. They said that something was making it seem like I had a good match when I did not. Thats why I question all of this. I have mooved up to a base antenna so that helped alot. The other time I blew a final was when I had got my first base antenna, It was a procomm patriot 12. I had hooke the meter up to see what the swr was befor I go key crazy on it and bam like that there went another. It turned out that the antenna Which is very similar to an antron but 12 feet long was way out of tune. I thought the antenna was a dud becouse they are supost to be pretuned. I called and they sent me another. The guy I talked to was the engineer of their antennas and he could not beleive what hapend so he sent me a new one. He said he would check to see if the antenna was tuned before he sent it to me. I got the antenna and after learning some hard lesson got a cheap radio and checked the swr. it was way the hell above 3 :shock: I could not beleive it!!! So I decided I would try and tune it. I finally got it down to 1:7 and thats where it stayed. Thank God for the guys at the local shop they heard about the problem I was having and gave me my antron for FREE!!! :D Well here I am know wanting to learn so thanks for all the replys and help!!! :)
 

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