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Anyone with HF ALE experience?

Moleculo

Ham Radio Nerd
Apr 14, 2002
9,200
1,686
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I found this site on Automatic Link Establishment at (ALE) Automatic Link Establishment and it seems pretty cool. Has anyone tried it out? Basically it looks like all you need is a way to control your rig from your PC and the software (which is free) to make this work.

For those who don't want to read all the details, ALE is a way for two stations to find a frequency to use on automatically, helping to eliminate guesswork from propagation. It seems pretty neat to me. If anyone here wants to try it out with me, let me know.
 

I am involved with an agency that uses it. I agree that ALE is, at the very least, VERY annoying. It "samples" frequencies at random making a sound much as does RTTY (didddly-diddley-diddley-diddley-diddley!) and it knows no care for traffic already existing on the frequency. :angry: I suppose it has its advantages, but I don't like it personally. :thumbdown:

73

CWM
 
I understand the concern about the interference, but I think at some point we (hams) are going to have to take a different view on systems like this.

Winlink, ALE and other technologies are technical advances in radio that are GOOD for the users and GOOD for the advancement of the hobby. Don't forget the stated purpose of Amateur radio by the FCC in part 97: "(4) Amateur service. A radiocommunication service for the purpose of self-training, intercommunication and technical investigations carried out by amateurs". If we continue to brow beat those that are investing time and expense to further the technical side of the hobby because it "interferes with something I've always done" then we are not helping ourselves. Besides, I have a lot of other things I can waste negative energy on.

Yes these things may cause some form of interference with something someone else is doing. I say so what? There are A LOT of things that hams do that unkowingly cause interference with some other operator. Sometimes I just leave the radio on to listen. Then when that QSO is over, I leave the radio on listen to the static crashes in the background while I'm doing something else. Then some ham op keys up and interferes with my static crashes that I'm enjoying. How DARE he? :p

Anyway, the military has been using forms of ALE forever on their frequencies. I think it's about time that we learn something from them and try to implement some of their technologies instead of staying happy with how "we learned" radio should be.
 
Winlink, ALE and other technologies are technical advances in radio that are GOOD for the users and GOOD for the advancement of the hobby.

Too broad a brush stroke on this one, but I agree that experimentation needs to continue.

ALE crashing in on an unoccupied frequency...sure it's no problem. ALE probing in the middle of your QSO, then two ops just suddenly popping in because their rigs told them the frequency 'works'...is no good.

Winlink... I'm on almost a crusade to stop Winlink and Pactor III...I'll give a bit of why.

Winlink's packet back ends intentionally disable DCD, meaning they will key down and blast a frequency with no regard to any other traffic that is already there, even with regard to other paclink or telpac traffic.

This is a horrific abomination and is literally polluting existing packet infrastructures. If existing packet or other traffic is there at the time, it will in turn interfere with the "Winlink" (I'll use that as the generic) traffic causing a log jam of noise and incredible breakdown and latency on the packet network.

Winlink front end allows users to attach any file they want, including something dumb like a 2MB pdf file and send it....this would take all day to send at 1200 baud under perfect conditions. Yes there are safe guards if you have an attendant watching, to cancel that transfer and black list that sending node, but the entire packet infrastructure is now crippled once that TX is made until it can be stopped and black listed.

I come from the viewpoint of using packet for EmmComm triage databases and BB's to manage shelter emergency traffic. Winlink is a massive disaster waiting to disable our networks...and we have many issues with Winlink users locally right now that consistently disrupt our drills and will be a massive issue in the event of a real disaster.

It's so bad that I've mapped out the QTHs of those with the interfering Winlink telpac nodes so we can take them out if something really happens in the region. They amount to intentional QRM and would be dealt with by the FCC if the ARRL hadn't been bought by SCS's lobbying efforts and endorsed this nonsense.

Pactor III is the protocol for packlink that Winlink uses on HF. You can't operate Pactor III unless you buy a modem from a sole source provider. They have a lock on the patent for the protocol and the hardware. Nobody knows what back doors they may have to be able to ...for example remotely shut down the entire Winlink system for whatever government pays them the most money for the rights.

The sole provider of these modems charges about $1500 entry level for their devices and is a non-US entity. The German government hasn't been very pleased with us as of late and I wouldn't want an "If all else fails" infrastructure dependent on a German owned company.

Winlink itself is completely closed source with only a few people with access to that source. It also depends only on Windows, which in turn is dependent on Microsoft tech support being online and available should you have trouble with your system....all not good in the event of a disaster. The software developers could easily disable the entire network should their own political views not align with those needing the network to survive.

Even an account for winlink isn't free and open. In order to get an account on the system, you are at the mercy of a newsgroup moderator to be approved. That is FAR from open. It is solely his choice to permit or not, your participation in what could be the last remaining means of communications infrastructure.

They currently tend to approve anyone, but what if they decide that you are a threat to the last remaining food in their area and they stop permitting people to get on the network? Or they chose to black out certain traffic from your area to keep you in the dark?

We as hams should not encourage any closed protocols whatsoever for disaster recovery infrastructure. We are handing our fates over to a very few select people....it is entirely too much trust to hand over. The very premise of what we do conflicts with this ideology.

I think that so few people understand how packet works or what it can do that this just slipped through quietly. It's time to snap people out of this and make them aware just how dangerous of a threat that Winlink is.

Yes Winlink has some nice concepts, but they can all be implemented in the clear and with open standards and peer review. There is no need to lock our most vital and vulnerable infrastructures into the hands of a very few.
 
All of MARS has already accepted Winlink as its backbone for emergency communications message handling in the event of a catastrophic failure of the Internet. It doesn't require Pactor III; it works just fine on Pactor I (although slower and assuming you're not sending files). Only Navy MARS has yet to cut completely over to Winlink, but they are in the process of doing so. If you've mapped out Winlink stations in the intent of "taking them out" in the event of an emergency, you might just be attempting to disable the very emergency resources (MARS Ops) that you need.

Winlink is here to stay. Army, Navy, and AirForce have said so. I think it would be more productive to figure out how to work with or live with it than to spend time worrying about something that is beyond our ability to get rid of. Packet has a place, too but it will have to evolve also and learn how to get along with newer technologies.
 
Ive tried it several times ,also JT65 ,I dont care for them.I have the Multi-PSK software
program-FREE-but upgrades are $35 I think-this program does it all-I like it very much
Paul -K8PG-CW IS !!!
 
Packet has a place, too but it will have to evolve also and learn how to get along with newer technologies.

If it were that simple that would be fine, the 'new technology' has destroyed the packet infrastructure.

Packet/ax.25 is what it is, you don't just slam down what is essentially intentional QRM on top of it. Packet is doing the right thing, the so-called 'new technology' should never have been permitted on the air. It's an unattended transmission that interrupts/interferes with already established communications on frequency.

Unfortunately I don't think we'll ever be able to get this stuff off the air, but maybe if enough people see what has been slipped past us all, there may still be hope.
 

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