Sirio Monsoon antenna

[Geoexplorer69]

Hello everyone it’s been a while since I’ve posted , the last time was looking for help with my Any tone quad 5v2 . Well that problem was fixed with a new quad 5 v2 radio and now I have finally put up my new Sirio monsoon antenna and WOW ! What a great antenna .

I don’t know if I got super lucky or what but after assembly following the directions setting the proper measurements for the elements putting it up attaching 100 feet of RG 8U coax , I could not believe the SWR meter reading 1.1-1.2 ACROSS THE ENTIRE 11M band ! So I pulled out my old mfj antenna analyzer set er for 26-29 megs and BAM Exact same swr 1.1-1.2 . Pulled out the Surecom antenna analyzer same story Well so far so good .

Now the real world test , on 38lsb made contacts all across the eastern US ( I’m down in a hole here in SW Arizona surrounded by high mountains ) I have the antenna up about 30’ and the antenna itself is 29’ tall so , let’s just say 60’. I’ve also made contacts in Jamaica, South America , Canada and Alaska . However my crowning contact to date was a fantastic QSO with Australia.

For those naysayers, that say the Sirio monsoon is kind of flimsy , well that could very well be but so far it has withstood 50+ mph winds on multiple occasions, big ass crows and Ravens and the one little rain shower we got didn’t even change the swr one bit . I get excellent audio reports and clear coms .

Now I want to try a beam antenna.
Cheers

 

[Henry HPSD]

Thats what it is all about !
Fantastic to hear about your experience ...keep it going !

You might want to check on 27,555 USB which is the "international" DX calling frequency. Im confident you should be able to get into Europa and africa etc.

And for sure a beam will open a new world for you..
Enjoy the band and hope to hear you some day !

Regards, Henry

 

[Geoexplorer69]

Thats what it is all about !
Fantastic to hear about your experience ...keep it going !

You might want to check on 27,555 USB which is the "international" DX calling frequency. Im confident you should be able to get into Europa and africa etc.

And for sure a beam will open a new world for you..
Enjoy the band and hope to hear you some day !

Regards, Henry

Thanks for the response Henry , I see your cb antennas. Com , So do you have any recommendations on a good beam antenna?

I’m kind of partial to SIRIO antennas but still open to suggestions. I don’t care about the size of the beam I’ve got plenty of room . A Sirio 4 element beam is what I’ve been looking at. I’m also looking a Maco m104c 4 or a MaCo comet .

My thoughts are to get a 2 position switch and keep the Monsoon antenna where it’s at now and set the beam on a rotor opposite the roof they would be about 100’ apart . OR can I mount the beam where the Monsoon is now and mount the monsoon antenna atop the beam ?

Having the monsoon ground plane I don’t feel the need to change the polarization on the beam or am I missing something?

Anyway thanks again for the help
Cheers , 73’s
Roger , operator 988 SW Arizona desert .

 

[Henry HPSD]

Hello,

That sirio has 8,1 dBi gain:
Sirio SY 4
The Maco has 8,67 dBi gain:
MACO 104C

Logical, as the Maco has about 25 percent more boomlength over the Sirio and gain comes from boomlength.

The advertised gain of both lack accuracy.
Maco speaks of 14dB and Sirio of 13,15 dBi...
That is just not going to happen, its a marketing "thing" i guess.

Despite the slight (true) gain advantage of the Maco, the overall antenna pattern of the sirio is better (tighter back).
Though the Maco allows you to modify its design more easily.
(you can change the element distances where on the sirio they are "fixed').

Element diameters are similair...
The boom of the Maco however is bigger again.
Mechanical wise the Maco has the edge.

Overall, well it just is what you want. If you want to plug and play...the Sirio.
The Maco has the potential to outperform the Sirio...but I wont use the standard factory dimensions.

I dont know how the supply is over there.... maybe your hardware store has got aluminium tubing with the diameters of MACO where the Sirio uses metric ...perhaps spare parts is something to consider ?

Sirio uses CST to model the antenna, Maco remains to be stuck with whatever they came-up with last century. Not bad ...but could be enhanced.

Either antenna will work and will get your signal "out there".

The 5/8 wave vertical can be placed directly above the yagi.
In order to illuminate interaction:
remove the radials and the beam will be the groundplane for it.
Maybe you can get away with the radials still attached to the 5/8 wave, but then we will need to model it and know how high the vertical will be above the beam.

And do consider antenna height ! ...verticals can almost be "sitting on the ground"..where a beam needs to be up in the air as high as you can.

Kind regards, Henry

 

[Chris Millas]

Hello everyone it’s been a while since I’ve posted , the last time was looking for help with my Any tone quad 5v2 . Well that problem was fixed with a new quad 5 v2 radio and now I have finally put up my new Sirio monsoon antenna and WOW ! What a great antenna .

I don’t know if I got super lucky or what but after assembly following the directions setting the proper measurements for the elements putting it up attaching 100 feet of RG 8U coax , I could not believe the SWR meter reading 1.1-1.2 ACROSS THE ENTIRE 11M band ! So I pulled out my old mfj antenna analyzer set er for 26-29 megs and BAM Exact same swr 1.1-1.2 . Pulled out the Surecom antenna analyzer same story Well so far so good .

Now the real world test , on 38lsb made contacts all across the eastern US ( I’m down in a hole here in SW Arizona surrounded by high mountains ) I have the antenna up about 30’ and the antenna itself is 29’ tall so , let’s just say 60’. I’ve also made contacts in Jamaica, South America , Canada and Alaska . However my crowning contact to date was a fantastic QSO with Australia.

For those naysayers, that say the Sirio monsoon is kind of flimsy , well that could very well be but so far it has withstood 50+ mph winds on multiple occasions, big ass crows and Ravens and the one little rain shower we got didn’t even change the swr one bit . I get excellent audio reports and clear coms .

Now I want to try a beam antenna.
Cheers

I've been running the Sirio Monsoon for several months now and it's been absolutely flawless. Tuned perfectly. Wind...absolutely not an issue. Love it so much I purchased a 2nd one.

 

[Geoexplorer69]

Hello,

That sirio has 8,1 dBi gain:
Sirio SY 4
The Maco has 8,67 dBi gain:
MACO 104C

Logical, as the Maco has about 25 percent more boomlength over the Sirio and gain comes from boomlength.

The advertised gain of both lack accuracy.
Maco speaks of 14dB and Sirio of 13,15 dBi...
That is just not going to happen, its a marketing "thing" i guess.

Despite the slight (true) gain advantage of the Maco, the overall antenna pattern of the sirio is better (tighter back).
Though the Maco allows you to modify its design more easily.
(you can change the element distances where on the sirio they are "fixed').

Element diameters are similair...
The boom of the Maco however is bigger again.
Mechanical wise the Maco has the edge.

Overall, well it just is what you want. If you want to plug and play...the Sirio.
The Maco has the potential to outperform the Sirio...but I wont use the standard factory dimensions.

I dont know how the supply is over there.... maybe your hardware store has got aluminium tubing with the diameters of MACO where the Sirio uses metric ...perhaps spare parts is something to consider ?

Sirio uses CST to model the antenna, Maco remains to be stuck with whatever they came-up with last century. Not bad ...but could be enhanced.

Either antenna will work and will get your signal "out there".

The 5/8 wave vertical can be placed directly above the yagi.
In order to illuminate interaction:
remove the radials and the beam will be the groundplane for it.
Maybe you can get away with the radials still attached to the 5/8 wave, but then we will need to model it and know how high the vertical will be above the beam.

And do consider antenna height ! ...verticals can almost be "sitting on the ground"..where a beam needs to be up in the air as high as you can.

Kind regards, Henry

Hello
Thanks again for a great explanation of the two Yagi’s I’m considering. Well actually 3 but you didn’t mention the MaCo yagi so no worries . That actually makes my decisions even better. Thank you .

I can totally understand the marketing ploy of both as I’ve dealt with it before on other equipment Ie radio “ advertised wattage vs Actual wattage ect ect add nausea. Especially on Chinese gear .

I was unaware that the Sirio yagi is a fixed element setup, hmmm not sure I like that because from my experience with the Sirio “Monsoon “ gp antenna the radials are indeed adjustable and by following the instructions I was able to achieve an almost perfect SWR across the entire 11m band ( 1.1-1.2 swr) and it only moves up slightly above or below 11m . I didn’t even have to mess with the “tunable coil “ .

I think I’m going to keep the antennas separate and not hassle with mounting the Monsoon above the yagi . I have the room and height above ground is no problem out here in the desert . ( No hoa’s or neighbors or power lines) to hassle with . That might change at a later date and I may reconsider mounting the GP above the Yagi . For now I think the old “KISS” ( keep it simple stupid ) method would be best.

With that being said I am planning on mounting the Yagi at least 60’ in the air I may be able to get er up to 100’ on a good pipe tower with a stout rotor I have .
Ether way it will be Arizona wind storm, Crow and Raven proof for sure .

My next question is if I mount the Yagi that high ( after tuning it of course) I plan on using some good RG8U coax Or something like LMR 600 depending on the amount of disposable income I have left after the purchase of the Yagi and all the extra stuff that will go along with the system. (antenna switch , jumpers , ect ect ) In my estimation I will need approximately 125’ of coax .

Now that being said my Sirio Monsoon is on 100’ of RG8U and we already know the great SWR I have with that setup. So is an extra 25’ of good coax really going to make a difference in Signal strength or quality? I understand that shorter is better and I also understand that people run longer distances with stuff like LMR 600 ect . I believe the RG 8U is equivalent to LMR 400 so maybe I should just bite the bullet and get LMR 600 even though it’s pretty stiff stuff or so I’ve been told .

I welcome your expert opinion and thank you for the advice.
Cheers
Roger

 

[Henry HPSD]

Hello Roger,

I dont know if you work a lot of "locals", in that case the vertical indeed needs to be as high as possible. But if you work mostly "skip". In that case you could place the vertical just almost "on the ground" that wont make a hugh difference.
We could look into that further..if of interest.

Long runs of coax will make your SWR look better.
That is cause long runs of coax have more loss.

Perhaps its wise to measure the SWR and write down your 2;1 swr points.
If for example the bandwidth is 2000 KHz and over time it becomes 2400 KHz you know there is "extra" loss somewhere ...maybe a bad connection or water or well...something is causing that extra loss.
So write down the 2;1 SWR points, that always comes in handy.

The coax.
If we look at these specifications:
https://secure.libertycable.com/RUB_IMAGES/images/spec/LMR-400 Specification.pdf. It says 0,7dB loss per 100 feet on 30 MHz, so rougly you are looking at 0,8 dB loss per 125 feet.

If we look at LMR 600 https://davisrf.com/pdfs/LMR600.pdf
That indicates 0,4 dB loss per 100 feet. So roughly you are looking at 0,5dB loss per 125 feet. The difference between LMR 400 and 600 resulting in 0,3dB over that 125 feet.

That difference is neglible.

With that said, you are speaking about coax jumpers, switches etc etc.
all those things combined will bring in additional loss, it ads up.
But money is always an issue..
If your present coax is "new', i would stick to to it. and put it on my "wishlist" for later.

100 feet in the air sounds like a winner ! You will be able to work the DX with ease for sure !

Kind regards,

Henry

 

[Wire Weasel]

Hello everyone it’s been a while since I’ve posted , the last time was looking for help with my Any tone quad 5v2 . Well that problem was fixed with a new quad 5 v2 radio and now I have finally put up my new Sirio monsoon antenna and WOW ! What a great antenna .

I don’t know if I got super lucky or what but after assembly following the directions setting the proper measurements for the elements putting it up attaching 100 feet of RG 8U coax , I could not believe the SWR meter reading 1.1-1.2 ACROSS THE ENTIRE 11M band ! So I pulled out my old mfj antenna analyzer set er for 26-29 megs and BAM Exact same swr 1.1-1.2 . Pulled out the Surecom antenna analyzer same story Well so far so good .

Now the real world test , on 38lsb made contacts all across the eastern US ( I’m down in a hole here in SW Arizona surrounded by high mountains ) I have the antenna up about 30’ and the antenna itself is 29’ tall so , let’s just say 60’. I’ve also made contacts in Jamaica, South America , Canada and Alaska . However my crowning contact to date was a fantastic QSO with Australia.

For those naysayers, that say the Sirio monsoon is kind of flimsy , well that could very well be but so far it has withstood 50+ mph winds on multiple occasions, big ass crows and Ravens and the one little rain shower we got didn’t even change the swr one bit . I get excellent audio reports and clear coms .

Now I want to try a beam antenna.
Cheers

Websites say it's a 5/8 and is 23.5' tall. You said 29' here ???

 

[Geoexplorer69]

Hello Roger,

I dont know if you work a lot of "locals", in that case the vertical indeed needs to be as high as possible. But if you work mostly "skip". In that case you could place the vertical just almost "on the ground" that wont make a hugh difference.
We could look into that further..if of interest.

Long runs of coax will make your SWR look better.
That is cause long runs of coax have more loss.

Perhaps its wise to measure the SWR and write down your 2;1 swr points.
If for example the bandwidth is 2000 KHz and over time it becomes 2400 KHz you know there is "extra" loss somewhere ...maybe a bad connection or water or well...something is causing that extra loss.
So write down the 2;1 SWR points, that always comes in handy.

The coax.
If we look at these specifications:
https://secure.libertycable.com/RUB_IMAGES/images/spec/LMR-400 Specification.pdf. It says 0,7dB loss per 100 feet on 30 MHz, so rougly you are looking at 0,8 dB loss per 125 feet.

If we look at LMR 600 https://davisrf.com/pdfs/LMR600.pdf
That indicates 0,4 dB loss per 100 feet. So roughly you are looking at 0,5dB loss per 125 feet. The difference between LMR 400 and 600 resulting in 0,3dB over that 125 feet.

That difference is neglible.

With that said, you are speaking about coax jumpers, switches etc etc.
all those things combined will bring in additional loss, it ads up.
But money is always an issue..
If your present coax is "new', i would stick to to it. and put it on my "wishlist" for later.

100 feet in the air sounds like a winner ! You will be able to work the DX with ease for sure !

Kind regards,

Henry

Thank you Henry for you all your help, I genuinely appreciate you taking time out of your day to answer my questions.

I’m not interested in local talk there is nothing but truckers and the occasional Atv jeepers chit chat . I absolutely love talking skip when the conditions are favorable SSB or AM .

So that narrows it down to DX . Especially since now I’ve had three contacts with Australia, and one with Tasmania. As well as a few central, and South America Contacts.

I totally understand the coax loss over distance however I’m not quite sure if I understand how to measure the amount of loss . With that being said what is the best instrument for measuring that loss if not an SWR meter or an antenna analyzer?

Maybe I could just get a newer antenna analyzer my old MFJ is kind of long in the tooth but it does the job.

I don’t really think I want to go the LMR 600 route if I can avoid it not because of cost but because I’m pretty sure that it’s much stiffer than LMR 400. The RG8U I have is stiff too .

As you are aware I’m running a brand new 100’ length of RG8U for the Sirio Monsoon ground plane . It works well for me so far. I will probably replace it in the distant future.

I want to run 125’ of ether LMR 400 or 600 for the beam antenna that will put me 100’ in the air as it’s approx 25’ into the shack from the tower.

I mentioned jumpers only for the connection between my radio and my swr meter . I don’t really have to use them as my radios have meters I’ve just never trusted them much .

I do however want to put the best switch money can buy so I can switch between the ground plane and the beam .

Cheers
Roger

 

[Geoexplorer69]

Websites say it's a 5/8 and is 23.5' tall. You said 29' here ???

Yeah I had a senior moment when I wrote that height
You are correct 23.5’ and it is indeed a 5/8 wave antenna

 

[Henry HPSD]

Hello Roger,

You are more then welcome !

There are several ways to measure the POWR dB loss.

You could measure your power output which goes into the coax and on the other end and calculate it from that.
(though most SWR/POWER meters lack accuracy)

For field use i tend to stick with my Minivna's. But there are many VNA's out there these days.
Google "nano-vna" that will get the job done, they are cheap these days.


Kind regards, Henry

 

[Dr_DX]

Transmission Line Details is exactly what you are looking for and the price is right - free. Go here:

AC6LA Software - TLDetails

and download the application. Install it on your computer. The program is 11 years old and may not have your exact coax, but you should be able to find an equivalent. TLDR, the shortest and most efficient coax that you can afford, should give you the best performance. Remember, a beam needs to have a flexible coax like LMR400UF.


1. Choose your coax type
2. Set you center frequency
3. Set your coax length
4. Set your Input watts

Read the Results

In the above example, 100' 66% VF RG-8 is being used (roughly the same as what you have if your RG-8 has a VF of 66%). at 27.2Mhz with 100 watts in, less than 80 watts make it to the antenna = 20.6%loss. That's coming and going. 20.6% of your RX signal is lost in the coax before it gets to your radio. 20.6% of your reflected watts are lost in the coax too.

The same setup using LMR-400 looks like this:


LMR-600 looks like this:


1/2" Hardline looks like this:

 

[Geoexplorer69]

Transmission Line Details is exactly what you are looking for and the price is right - free. Go here:

AC6LA Software - TLDetails

and download the application. Install it on your computer. The program is 11 years old and may not have your exact coax, but you should be able to find an equivalent. TLDR, the shortest and most efficient coax that you can afford, should give you the best performance. Remember, a beam needs to have a flexible coax like LMR400UF.
View attachment 72640

1. Choose your coax type
2. Set you center frequency
3. Set your coax length
4. Set your Input watts

Read the Results

In the above example, 100' 66% VF RG-8 is being used (roughly the same as what you have if your RG-8 has a VF of 66%). at 27.2Mhz with 100 watts in, less than 80 watts make it to the antenna = 20.6%loss. That's coming and going. 20.6% of your RX signal is lost in the coax before it gets to your radio. 20.6% of your reflected watts are lost in the coax too.

The same setup using LMR-400 looks like this:
View attachment 72641

LMR-600 looks like this:
View attachment 72642

1/2" Hardline looks like this:
View attachment 72643

Thank you for the information, now I can visualize clearly.

 

[Geoexplorer69]

Hello Roger,

You are more then welcome !

There are several ways to measure the POWR dB loss.

You could measure your power output which goes into the coax and on the other end and calculate it from that.
(though most SWR/POWER meters lack accuracy)

For field use i tend to stick with my Minivna's. But there are many VNA's out there these days.
Google "nano-vna" that will get the job done, they are cheap these days.


Kind regards, Henry

Thank you Henry ,
I have been looking at the nano vna, and also a much more expensive antenna analyzer. I think I’m going to bite the bullet and get the Nano with the larger screen. Not sure of the model off the top of my head.

Ok my shopping list is getting pretty full so it’s time to spend some money.

I will report back when I have everything up and running.
Thank you vey much Henry ! And thanks to everyone who added knowledge.

Cheers
Roger

 

[Geoexplorer69]

Hello everyone
Well I’m finally out of the desert and just set up my radios at the new qth ( temporary location during summer as the temperature gets way too hot in the SW desert in summertime)

I haven’t purchased a new yagi yet but I did set up the Sirio monsoon . Now I’m having some issues with the setup that I can’t seem to figure out how to fix them .

I will explain below
When I first set up the monsoon at the new qth I used the only coax I had at the time which is RG8U X 100’
This worked perfectly with the original setup and at the new location. good contacts, good SWR, etc..

I purchased a 50’ section of LMR 400 (not uf) and this is where my issues started showing up.

I brought the antenna down from the temporary mast. I had it mounted on at the new location double checked all the measurements for setting the antenna up and had it set up bang on.

At first, the new coax the LMR 400 things were OK the SWR was running around 1.2 to 1.17 at the high end of the band 11m btw. The line runs straight from the antenna down to the radio with very shallow Bends at the antenna and coming into the shack. absolutely no kinks or major bends and I used extreme care and uncoiling the LMR 400 when I initially received it, laying it out straight across the ground as I uncoiled it.

It seems for the last couple of weeks I’m not getting receive coverage that I used to get. I do understand checking the Internet that the 11 m band is pretty poor right now with that being said I’ve only made a couple of contacts either mid morning or mid afternoon.

I’m getting conflicting reports from the three antenna analyzers that I have now and here they are .
MFJ226
SWR 1.17 /Z 40.2 / R40.5 loss 9.7 Db 20 ohms
MFJ 259b
SWR 1.2 R48-49 / loss 9-10 db 20 ohms
Nano VNA h
SWR 1.2 48-49 ohms / loss 11.7 Db

The only thing I actually have calibration standards for is the nano VNA. So that could be the reason why the two older MFJ meters are showing a low Ohm resistance? Gets

So i’m looking for anybody’s input because I’m about ready to put the other coax back on even though the LMR 400 checks out there’s no shorts no opens according to the multimeter. What am I missing or is it just the conditions?

Thank you