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Antenna/motor home with a fiberglass roof

Robb

Honorary Member Silent Key
Dec 18, 2008
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Silicon Valley CA, Storm Lake IA
Working on a neighbor's 1975 GMC motor home. Putting a Predator 10K clone antenna on it; the Workman SP-3000. Problem is that the roof is made of fiberglass and has no metal frame on it. Made a mounting pole that mounts to the left front mirror which holds the mirror mount for the antenna. The mirror mount is grounded to the lower frame. Tested it with an ohmmeter and saw no resistance.

The real problem is getting the SWR to where it should be. Before I added two 9 ft pieces of wire alone the sides of the top of the vehicle, the SWR was about 6. Now it is down to 2.3 and will go no lower.

Any ideas/input?
Little frustrated at this time . . .
 

Is the antenna mounted above the roof line? If it is and falls within height restrictions, I would try the sheet metal idea. :) You could try insulating the metal pole from the mirror and see if it would function as a dipole set up.
How is the mirror mount grounded to the lower frame? Maybe it's a ground loop?
 
Putting sheet metal on this beautiful motor home is out of the question. I originally tested the SP-3000 when I first got it with a mag mount on the roof of my Honda CR-V. It worked quite well and the SWR wasn't an issue. Exceptionally wide bandwidth and the specs are similar - if not the same - as the Predator 10K. Materials and workmanship on this antenna are decent, the antenna cost was only $28 plus $17 shipping from Copper Electronics to CA. No complaint there at all.

So yes; the counterpoise is the issue with the SWR. But just how would you do it - other than using sheet metal - to accomplish the same end?

EDIT:
The tip of the antenna is 13'6" above the ground surface. The base of the antenna is slightly below the roof line
 
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I would be loathe to do anything with the roof of that old of an RV. Roof leaks are common and expensive.

I have a ham that lives up the road from me. Not at all what I would call an elmer. I am a filthy freebander after all. This guy is a snowbird. He mounted a ten meter antenna on his mirror, but to get his SWRs where they need to be, he mounted a second antenna pointing down as a dipole. On the drivers side where there is no door. Ugly, but it works.

Or at least he claims. He doesn't like me very much. I have no base set up, but I am still running an evil HR2510 as a mobile and exceeding my allotted 4 watts, so he may have fed me a story.
 
Body panel adhesive has come a long way. Bonding some nice big panels on top would work, look nice and... Well, work.

No need for screws and once applied ain't coming off.
 
co-phase antenna

CHOOSING SINGLE OR CO-PHASE ANTENNA SYSTEM

Truck drivers' made co-phase antenna set-ups popular back in the early 70's. There are several good reasons for their use. First of all, co-phased antennas create a directional pattern that favors communications in front and in back of the vehicle. This is ideal for truckers and RV's that use their radios to speak to those on the same road/highway that they are traveling on. If you are speaking with someone in front or behind your vehicle and either one of you take a turn and leave the more powerful RF lobe, a definite change in clarity will be noted.
The second advantage of co-phased antennas is there ability to perform where there is little reflective ground plane for the single antenna to radiate its energy from. For instance, on fiberglass vehicles or those with light aluminum sheeting over a non-metallic frame. In those situations a co-phase set-up allows the antennas to use each other's radiation field to direct the combined energy across the horizon. In order to be effective at least 2/3's of each antenna must have unobstructed line-of-sight to the other antenna.
The third justification for dual antennas involves situations where some or the entire signal would be blocked if a single antenna was used. For instances, if you were pulling a large trailer. In such cases, having an antenna on both sides of the vehicle prevents signal blockage. Note: Drivers that pull large trailers and choose to use one antenna will (should) mount the antenna on the drivers side of the vehicle in order to maintain contact with vehicles traveling in the opposite direction.
One additional reason has to do with power. Stock CB's leave the factory with the transmitter power limited to 4 watts but there is an underground market of linear amplifiers in existence. Inasmuch as power will eventually turn into heat, and the antenna will be required to dissipate that heat, two antennas will more than double the heat dissipation abilities of a single antenna.
For general communication, with an Omni-directional radiation pattern, a single antenna system is all you probably need.
SPECIAL CONSIDERATIONS
Single antenna installations for 2-Way Radio requires 50-ohm coaxial cables such as RG-58A/U or RG-8X. Dual antenna installations require 75-ohm coaxial cable (co-phase harness) to perform properly. Note: From time to time we hear from people in the field that have made co-phase harnesses from 50-ohm coax and report better than average SWR. In tests performed at our facility we found that the lower SWR readings were a results of power losses that often exceeded 50% of the radio output when compared to RG-59A/U coax and higher SWR readings. Accordingly, do not use 50-ohm coax for co-phase antenna installations.
Spacing of the antennas in a dual antenna installation will have an affect on the radiation pattern of the antennas. Technically, spacing between the antennas should be nine feet (2.7m) to have the most balanced pattern. If that distance cannot be achieved, that alone should not discourage you from using co-phased antennas as you will still receive most of the benefits of a dual antenna set-up. However, spacing less than five feet (1.5m) may require some special tuning skills in order to achieve satisfactory SWR readings.


Fuzzy
 
CHOOSING SINGLE OR CO-PHASE ANTENNA SYSTEM

Truck drivers' made co-phase antenna set-ups popular back in the early 70's. There are several good reasons for their use. First of all, co-phased antennas create a directional pattern that favors communications in front and in back of the vehicle. This is ideal for truckers and RV's that use their radios to speak to those on the same road/highway that they are traveling on. If you are speaking with someone in front or behind your vehicle and either one of you take a turn and leave the more powerful RF lobe, a definite change in clarity will be noted.
The second advantage of co-phased antennas is there ability to perform where there is little reflective ground plane for the single antenna to radiate its energy from. For instance, on fiberglass vehicles or those with light aluminum sheeting over a non-metallic frame. In those situations a co-phase set-up allows the antennas to use each other's radiation field to direct the combined energy across the horizon. In order to be effective at least 2/3's of each antenna must have unobstructed line-of-sight to the other antenna.
The third justification for dual antennas involves situations where some or the entire signal would be blocked if a single antenna was used. For instances, if you were pulling a large trailer. In such cases, having an antenna on both sides of the vehicle prevents signal blockage. Note: Drivers that pull large trailers and choose to use one antenna will (should) mount the antenna on the drivers side of the vehicle in order to maintain contact with vehicles traveling in the opposite direction.
One additional reason has to do with power. Stock CB's leave the factory with the transmitter power limited to 4 watts but there is an underground market of linear amplifiers in existence. Inasmuch as power will eventually turn into heat, and the antenna will be required to dissipate that heat, two antennas will more than double the heat dissipation abilities of a single antenna.
For general communication, with an Omni-directional radiation pattern, a single antenna system is all you probably need.
SPECIAL CONSIDERATIONS
Single antenna installations for 2-Way Radio requires 50-ohm coaxial cables such as RG-58A/U or RG-8X. Dual antenna installations require 75-ohm coaxial cable (co-phase harness) to perform properly. Note: From time to time we hear from people in the field that have made co-phase harnesses from 50-ohm coax and report better than average SWR. In tests performed at our facility we found that the lower SWR readings were a results of power losses that often exceeded 50% of the radio output when compared to RG-59A/U coax and higher SWR readings. Accordingly, do not use 50-ohm coax for co-phase antenna installations.
Spacing of the antennas in a dual antenna installation will have an affect on the radiation pattern of the antennas. Technically, spacing between the antennas should be nine feet (2.7m) to have the most balanced pattern. If that distance cannot be achieved, that alone should not discourage you from using co-phased antennas as you will still receive most of the benefits of a dual antenna set-up. However, spacing less than five feet (1.5m) may require some special tuning skills in order to achieve satisfactory SWR readings.


Fuzzy

I agree with you, but most people here won't. I have a co-phased set up on a pick up and I wouldn't discourage it at all. But this is a thought that I find myself in a minority. Mine are spaced about 6.5' apart, maybe slightly more. I get really good results, despite people saying that I'm wrong. I actually did an experiment to see how going from a single antenna with RG58 coax, to adding the second antenna using my RG59 coax. I consistantly got better results from using them co-phased than single. I know this is just going to stir controversy, because everyone is stuck on the idea that co-phasing has negative impacts rather than positive. After doing my experiment, I'm inclined to disagree.
 
One simple method of making an antenna work with a fiberglass vehicle is to supply the metal is doesn't have to provide a conduction path for the antenna system. That doesn't mean putting a metal top on the thing, just making a little of it metal will work. Run some wire or metal foil strips along the roof. One is all it takes but more won't hurt anything at all.
{One aspect of it is that antennas would prefer to be above metal rather than beside metal, and just don't like being under metal much at all. While it's nice to try to keep antennas happy it just isn't always practical, so, you make them as happy as possible and live with it.}
Putting an antenna on top of that motor home isn't very practical for a couple of reasons, so, you will have to compromise. That mirror mount is a very common compromise with a lot of vehicles. So is using a 'ladder' if one's available. Or if the sides of that motor home are metal why not use them (too)?
Given the circumstances, I wouldn't figure you to end up with a 'great' antenna system, but that certainly doesn't mean you can't end up with a usable one.
Good luck.
- 'Doc
 
I've seen this before, or something worded almost just like it, is this off of firestick's web site or something?

A few comments on parts of what was said...

First of all, co-phased antennas create a directional pattern that favors communications in front and in back of the vehicle. This is ideal for truckers and RV's that use their radios to speak to those on the same road/highway that they are traveling on. If you are speaking with someone in front or behind your vehicle and either one of you take a turn and leave the more powerful RF lobe, a definite change in clarity will be noted.

Not arguing what is happening just trying to put it in perspective. If you can get the antennas 9' apart you will get 1.1db gain over a single antenna in two directions (the line from in between the antennas or in front or behind the truck). It is often said that a gain of less than 3db doesn't amount to much. This gain is 1/8 of an s-unit in optimal conditions, which most vehicles are not. Anything less than a 9' separation will be less, and this less adds up very quickly. 4.5' for example would be .3DB gain (yes that is point 3 DB) over single antenna in the same two directions, so as you see what little gain you get drops off very quick.

Also don't forget, for any gain you get in those directions there has to be an equivalent loss somewhere else, in this case that would be the other two directions.

The second advantage of co-phased antennas is there ability to perform where there is little reflective ground plane for the single antenna to radiate its energy from. For instance, on fiberglass vehicles or those with light aluminum sheeting over a non-metallic frame. In those situations a co-phase set-up allows the antennas to use each other's radiation field to direct the combined energy across the horizon. In order to be effective at least 2/3's of each antenna must have unobstructed line-of-sight to the other antenna.

Just an addition here. This is true, a cophased set of antennas don't have to have a ground plane to work, however, they would work better with one.

One additional reason has to do with power. Stock CB's leave the factory with the transmitter power limited to 4 watts but there is an underground market of linear amplifiers in existence. Inasmuch as power will eventually turn into heat, and the antenna will be required to dissipate that heat, two antennas will more than double the heat dissipation abilities of a single antenna.

This may have opened up a can of worms. For one, not all power radiated from a CB (or any radio transmitter for that matter) turns into heat. If you have a descent antenna that is set up properly very little of that power is turned to heat. Also, the use of a higher quality coax such as RG-213 or LMR-400 to a single antenna can easily surpass the power handling capacity of two lengths of RG-59 coax. In the case of what is available for power output the two lengths of RG-59 coax used for most co-phased connections would be more of a limitation than a help.

Spacing of the antennas in a dual antenna installation will have an affect on the radiation pattern of the antennas. Technically, spacing between the antennas should be nine feet (2.7m) to have the most balanced pattern. If that distance cannot be achieved, that alone should not discourage you from using co-phased antennas as you will still receive most of the benefits of a dual antenna set-up. However, spacing less than five feet (1.5m) may require some special tuning skills in order to achieve satisfactory SWR readings.

As I mentioned above, 4.5 feet separation will net you .3DB gain (again that is point 3 DB gain) over a single antenna. 1DB gain is around 25%, .3db gain is insignificant, you may as well run just a single antenna at that point, that is if you have a proper ground plane.

The benefits referred to really come to one thing in my opinion, the antennas use each other for part of their tuning. A well tuned antenna acts as both an inductor and a capacitor at the same time. Inductors and capacitors have the opposite effect on the radio signal being transmitted. To get the most of that signal they need to be in balance, or resonance. The inductance comes from the length of the antenna, capacitance is from the ground plane. When you use a cophased setup (or any other form of phasing for that matter) the antennas also add capacitance with each other. This capacitance can be beneficial as far as tuning is concerned if you don't have a ground plane.

Word of note, this does not replace a ground plane. As each antenna is half of an antenna, each antenna still looks for its other half. The antennas do not see the other antennas in question as their other half, instead, if there is no ground plane they typically use the coax used to feed them. The lack of an actual ground plane will make the cophased antennas used in this way less efficient. They will still work, but not as well as they could work.


The DB
 
yep your are correct

the info did come from firestick but that is not the point.
The gentleman is trying to get low swr without a ground plain.
yes you can run ground radial's, or use metal tape.
but in his case of a fiberglass body I would use a cophased antenna system.
Fuzzy
 
UPDATE:

The practical realities of my attempt to make this Predator antenna/clone work without defacing the vehicle has come to and end. The best SWR that was attainable by adding wire radials in various configurations was 2.3.

I wondered what other possibilities and options were available. Perhaps the dual antennas; but the owner of this motor home didn't like that idea - for whatever reason. After researching the problem of motor homes that have no usable ground plane surface, I found that Firestik has a low-cost and effective solution.

Firestik/Hustler stated that any normal antenna for the 11m band will require 9 sq ft of sheet metal as a counterpoise. Since the upper section of this vehicle has no ground plane at all, Firestik has a 'No Ground Plane' antenna specifically designed for motor homes that have no ground plane surface to work with. They have two models, one is 4 ft in length and the other is 2 ft. It is a complete kit with contains a mount, 18 ft of 'special' coax, and a tune-able whip antenna. Cost was $46 and with shipping came to about $52.

I'll update next week when I install it.


Firestik LG4M2-B 4 ft

21kszytzJ2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg


Firestik-M-2-Molded-Side-Antenna.jpg
 
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the info did come from firestick but that is not the point.
The gentleman is trying to get low swr without a ground plain.
yes you can run ground radial's, or use metal tape.
but in his case of a fiberglass body I would use a cophased antenna system.
Fuzzy

Apparently you didn't read all of what I posted...

This is true, a cophased set of antennas don't have to have a ground plane to work, however, they would work better with one.

The benefits referred to really come to one thing in my opinion, the antennas use each other for part of their tuning.

They will still work, but not as well as they could work.

I never once claimed they would not work for what the op needed. As a matter of fact I have said that they would work more than one time. I was simply trying to put in perspective some of the points alluded to in the text, points that seem as if they would have a greater or different effects than they actually do. I simply wanted to make sure anyone reading this would not make a false assumption, which would be very easy to do the way the original text was written.


The DB
 

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