AVG versus PEP?

[Moleculo]

its a real good way to sell radios 10 real watts in voila 30+pep out SOLD!

here we go with the "real" watts again. Did you miss the part about how transistor manufacturers rate the power output using PEP output, which is one good reason why people want to use that type of measurement? It doesn't really matter which way you measure the output, as long as you state the method when throwing around numbers. Those that understand what PEP and AVG mean will understand the numbers.

 

[Switch Kit]

here we go with the "real" watts again. Did you miss the part about how transistor manufacturers rate the power output using PEP output, which is one good reason why people want to use that type of measurement? It doesn't really matter which way you measure the output, as long as you state the method when throwing around numbers.((( Those that understand what PEP and AVG mean will understand the numbers.)))

Agreed. Wow !! would be great if every Texas Star amplifier made with there numbers on the front were AVG !! but there not , they are more so ballpark numbers in pep.

The fact that they and most amp builders like that have been using pep numbers for decades. It certainly doesn't make it a lie . Do pep numbers sell ? I'd say yes , there is no need for the average users to even care about AVG numbers.

I think there are many of us around here that understand the differents between AVG and PEP 1342. You seem to be on some kind of cursade with this ? but both numbers work anyway I look it . I guess your just a ordindary average guy 1342.

 

[1342]

A 'watt' is a measurement of the amount of work being done. Electrically, it's defined as the amount of work being done by 1 volt with 1 ampere of current flowing.
If you have a circuit that is flowing 1 amp at 1 volt then the work/power being done is 1 watt.
The difference between an 'average' watt and a 'Pep' watt is in how 'fast' you are doing the measuring, or, how much the work varies in a unit of time. For instance. A constant carrier signal is just that, constant. Doesn't vary in magnitude. ('Dead key') But, when you modulate that constant carrier, put an audio signal on it, then the amplitude of the signal changes with the frequency of the applied signal (voice/tone/whatever). If you happen to do the measuring at a voice/tone peak, it will be more watts than if you measure it during a tone/voice 'minimum' {a voice can be considered an AC signal since the tone varies according to how fast (frequency) the vocal cords are vibrating (oscillating)}. An 'average' watt meter sort of averages those peaks/valleys over a period of time longer than the time for one full cycle of that voice 'oscillation'. That's because of the way a typical mechanical meter works, it isn't very fast moving, takes time for that current flowing in the meter to make the needle do any moving. [Sheesh, getting sort of involved, huh?]
When you consider an electrical circuit you are usually only interested in the maximums. That way you can design the circuit so that it's strong enough to handle that much power, sort of. Or you want to know what the maximum power is, right? So, all them 'low' spots don't really interest you. So, you design a meter that only reads the maximum values, only reads the "peaks" of the signal, and ... ... "TA-DA!" ... you got a 'Pep' meter. The same amount of power is being produced or transmitted. The only difference is in how, or "where" in the cycle of that transmitted signal the measurement is taken. An average meter and a Pep meter show different readings for the exact same watt that's coming out of the transmitter (or amplifier). The only practical difference between the two is the 'size' of the number. There is a definite relationship between those two numbers, average watt and Pep watt. If you know what that relationship is, you can calculate one from the other. (A pep watt is about 1.4 times the 'size' of an average watt. So 100 average watts is about 140 Pep watts.) Why use an averaging meter instead of a Pep meter? Because that's what you happen to have. What happens if you use a Pep meter to read a constant or continuous signal, no variations from applied modulation? You get the same reading as the averaging meter gives (or should), since there's no peaks and valleys, or it's all peaks, whatever. The confusion comes in because people seem to think that a watt changes in size. It doesn't. Only in how it's measured.

That's all a generalization. Nothing absolutely 'exact', but close enough for government standards, sort of.
- 'Doc

((If you are after 'bigger' numbers, just lie about it. Much cheaper/easier than not.))


Oh, one last thing. I'm on my first cup of coffee. If the numbers are wrong it's because it's my first cup of coffee. If I check it later I may change or correct it.. if I remember. The general idea is true, the rest is subject to more coffee.

hey moleculo remember this post this sums it up quite well.or the one a few posts up.how about this pep=avg power*2.66

 

[1342]

Agreed. Wow !! would be great if every Texas Star amplifier made with there numbers on the front were AVG !! but there not , they are more so ballpark numbers in pep.

The fact that they and most amp builders like that have been using pep numbers for decades. It certainly doesn't make it a lie . Do pep numbers sell ? I'd say yes , there is no need for the average users to even care about AVG numbers.

I think there are many of us around here that understand the differents between AVG and PEP 1342. You seem to be on some kind of cursade with this ? but both numbers work anyway I look it . I guess your just a ordindary average guy 1342.

hey switch there was a topic about texas star not to long ago and i think that all companies are getting on the pep bandwagon.back in the day an amplifier power claim seemed pretty dead on 250 rating on an amp could get 250 in pep or average ssb output real power!sporting some 2290s-or 2879s i even seen 455s and 2879s produce more than there power ratings in avg power.however now a days things are different while you might see 250 watts pep on am testing a 2 pill 1446 amplifier that earlier had 2290 or 2879s you wont see that on ssb unless you overdrive it beyond how it should be driven or you bump the voltage up several volts over a common 14 volt automobile.but this same amp is still rated at 250 watts! 2*1446 140-180 watts not 250.2*2290 160-180 closer.2*2879 240 watts plus.many radios these days same thing.

 

[W5LZ]

Ah, but the difference in the output of an amplifier between AM and SSB is in the amount of power being fed to the amplifier, and how it's being measured. 100 watts avg, and 266 watts Pep (or 214 watts depending on the conversion factor. You use 2.66, I like 2.14. Whoopee.) doesn't matter, it means the same thing. Pep watts are no bigger than average or RMS watts. Or maybe a better way of putting it is that Pep watts ARE bigger than avg/Rms watts! But the amount of 'work' they do are the same.
As far as using Pep watts for generations is concerned, it just depends on who you talk to and their purpose for how they express power. It's a numbers game used in advertising. Which, as far as I'm concerned, it called lying, and means the unsuspecting are being taken advantage of. Just because it's been done for years doesn't mean it's right.
- 'Doc


My solid state amplifier uses 2N2222 pills. 228 of them. Does every bit of maybe 50 watts Pep on AM. Them's 'Bird watts', by the way.

(Does that '2.14' number ring any bells for you? Or how about '0.707'??)

 

[1342]

Ah, but the difference in the output of an amplifier between AM and SSB is in the amount of power being fed to the amplifier, and how it's being measured. 100 watts avg, and 266 watts Pep (or 214 watts depending on the conversion factor. You use 2.66, I like 2.14. Whoopee.) doesn't matter, it means the same thing. Pep watts are no bigger than average or RMS watts. Or maybe a better way of putting it is that Pep watts ARE bigger than avg/Rms watts! But the amount of 'work' they do are the same.
As far as using Pep watts for generations is concerned, it just depends on who you talk to and their purpose for how they express power. It's a numbers game used in advertising. Which, as far as I'm concerned, it called lying, and means the unsuspecting are being taken advantage of. Just because it's been done for years doesn't mean it's right.
- 'Doc


My solid state amplifier uses 2N2222 pills. 228 of them. Does every bit of maybe 50 watts Pep on AM. Them's 'Bird watts', by the way.

(Does that '2.14' number ring any bells for you? Or how about '0.707'??)

not to sure on actual numbers but i know this out of the three meters that i have two of these read pep at about a 2 to 3 times higher than average power.as you stated before a watt is a watt!why some think by switching a pep switch or a pep meter is going to change output 2 to 3 times higher i have no clue.i know my meters dont have any transistors in them lol.

 

[Robb]

There is no real standard used to sell amps? One should be the voltage used in the amp and radio - like 13.8v's. Sure, one can over-volt amps to get more dirty watts - at the cost of the life of the amp. Or radio for that matter.

Then, it is a matter of the radio output swing watts and how much any amp can take w/o distorting in its input stage. What is left should be considered 'honest' watts. There are no oversights in this business; but the reputation of the amp company and their ability to come up with the goods.

Reminds me of some these guys rolling around with 'bump' stereo systems in their cars. They don't really give a rat's ass if the watts are without IMD - just so long as the system can rattle the license plate bracket and the fillings in their teeth.

I have a background in real hifi stuff. The thought of having any distortion is inconceivable to me. But some radio operators only care about rattling teeth and not if they can be clearer to a receiving station. I've heard very few stations that have a true, clean transmitted sound. Considering the limited frequency response of most radios, it is almost a waste of time to get it sounding clean. I'd like to see radios be able to get a freq response of 50-15khz with little distortion. That sounds like a better goal than just trying to be loud. Being able to be heard clearly would make a much better goal - IMO...

PEP or AVG watts should only be secondary to the ability to be heard clearly...

 

[Moleculo]

not to sure on actual numbers but i know this out of the three meters that i have two of these read pep at about a 2 to 3 times higher than average power.as you stated before a watt is a watt!why some think by switching a pep switch or a pep meter is going to change output 2 to 3 times higher i have no clue.i know my meters dont have any transistors in them lol.

When you flip that switch on the meter from CW to PEP (or AVG to PEP), you're not changing you much power output is coming from the transmitter. You're just changing the method of measurement. I think most people understand this. They may not understand how the measurements or the math works, but they understand that the transmitter didn't suddenly produce more power. How much power output the transmitter is doing is irrespective of how much of that power is actually present on the fundamental or "intended" frequency. The watt meter doesn't know the difference. This is why "Type accepted" or "certified" (or whatever term you want to use that means the government gave their stamp of approval on them) include other measurements like IMD figures and spurious emissions measurements along with the power output.

My Icom 746pro, 706mkiig, Yaesu 897D, Ameritron AL-811H amp, and Ameritron ALS-500M amp all give their power output ratings in PEP. Does that mean I should call up Icom, Yaesu, and Ameritron and ask them what the output is in "real" watts? No, of course not. They assume that if I know enough to use the equipment, then I can do the conversion to AVG output if I want to know badly enough. This has nothing to do with trying to sell more stuff; with Amateur equipment they're just using the standard measurement that the FCC requires of Amateur stations. Of course, in the CB world, there are no "standards" for amplifiers and export radios, so people can throw around whatever numbers they want and never have to explain them.

If I want, I can say that the electricity in my house is 155 Volts Peak and it's fed by a 311 Volts Peak mains supply. That doesn't mean my house has any higher voltage than yours - It's still 110V RMS & 220V RMS mains. the 155 peak voltage isn't "fake" voltage; it's just a different way of measuring the same thing.

It's really no different than measuring length or distance. You can say something is 1 foot long, 12 inches, or 30 centimeters. Are any of those measurements fake? Is any measurement better than any other? Does one make you feel better because the number is bigger? As long as you include the measurement method with the figure, everyone should be able to understand what you're talking about, but it doesn't change the physical attributes one bit. I'm not sure how to put it any other way that's clearer.

 

[1342]

When you flip that switch on the meter from CW to PEP (or AVG to PEP), you're not changing you much power output is coming from the transmitter. You're just changing the method of measurement. I think most people understand this. They may not understand how the measurements or the math works, but they understand that the transmitter didn't suddenly produce more power. How much power output the transmitter is doing is irrespective of how much of that power is actually present on the fundamental or "intended" frequency. The watt meter doesn't know the difference. This is why "Type accepted" or "certified" (or whatever term you want to use that means the government gave their stamp of approval on them) include other measurements like IMD figures and spurious emissions measurements along with the power output.

My Icom 746pro, 706mkiig, Yaesu 897D, Ameritron AL-811H amp, and Ameritron ALS-500M amp all give their power output ratings in PEP. Does that mean I should call up Icom, Yaesu, and Ameritron and ask them what the output is in "real" watts? No, of course not. They assume that if I know enough to use the equipment, then I can do the conversion to AVG output if I want to know badly enough. This has nothing to do with trying to sell more stuff; with Amateur equipment they're just using the standard measurement that the FCC requires of Amateur stations. Of course, in the CB world, there are no "standards" for amplifiers and export radios, so people can throw around whatever numbers they want and never have to explain them.

If I want, I can say that the electricity in my house is 155 Volts Peak and it's fed by a 311 Volts Peak mains supply. That doesn't mean my house has any higher voltage than yours - It's still 110V RMS & 220V RMS mains. the 155 peak voltage isn't "fake" voltage; it's just a different way of measuring the same thing.

It's really no different than measuring length or distance. You can say something is 1 foot long, 12 inches, or 30 centimeters. Are any of those measurements fake? Is any measurement better than any other? Does one make you feel better because the number is bigger? As long as you include the measurement method with the figure, everyone should be able to understand what you're talking about, but it doesn't change the physical attributes one bit. I'm not sure how to put it any other way that's clearer.

i think you missed my point.my collins 30l-1 is also rated in pep at 1 kw however it does over that with more drive in AVERAGE POWER!so if your ameritron isnt hitting its mark on average power feel free to give them a buzz.by the way sounds like a nice setup

 

[C2]

reminds me of when I was in high school and my buddy borrowed his dads car.

We pondered tachometer as my friend wondered how high was it safe to go? It redlined at 6.5 grand.

But, yeah, the meter goes all the way up 8.5 grand, and the pin is probably close to 9...

Oh yeah, in reality, redline is only for short, very brief moments.

OF course, I had a friend that would just let his old datsun hang at terminal RPM for minutes. The thing would just not blow up.

And if you can't do that with your vehicular, feel free to call the MFG.

There are two different means of measurement for different reasons. You should use the correct one for your application.

 

[Beetle]

i think you missed my point.my collins 30l-1 is also rated in pep at 1 kw however it does over that with more drive in AVERAGE POWER!so if your ameritron isnt hitting its mark on average power feel free to give them a buzz.by the way sounds like a nice setup

The 30L1 was (is) rated at 1KW DC INPUT. When the S-Line and the 30L1 were in production, there was no specification for output power, PEP or otherwise, because very, very few hams had instruments that could accurately measure RF power. DC volts and current are easy.

 

[1342]

When you flip that switch on the meter from CW to PEP (or AVG to PEP), you're not changing you much power output is coming from the transmitter. You're just changing the method of measurement. I think most people understand this. They may not understand how the measurements or the math works, but they understand that the transmitter didn't suddenly produce more power. How much power output the transmitter is doing is irrespective of how much of that power is actually present on the fundamental or "intended" frequency. The watt meter doesn't know the difference. This is why "Type accepted" or "certified" (or whatever term you want to use that means the government gave their stamp of approval on them) include other measurements like IMD figures and spurious emissions measurements along with the power output.

My Icom 746pro, 706mkiig, Yaesu 897D, Ameritron AL-811H amp, and Ameritron ALS-500M amp all give their power output ratings in PEP. Does that mean I should call up Icom, Yaesu, and Ameritron and ask them what the output is in "real" watts? No, of course not. They assume that if I know enough to use the equipment, then I can do the conversion to AVG output if I want to know badly enough. This has nothing to do with trying to sell more stuff; with Amateur equipment they're just using the standard measurement that the FCC requires of Amateur stations. Of course, in the CB world, there are no "standards" for amplifiers and export radios, so people can throw around whatever numbers they want and never have to explain them.

If I want, I can say that the electricity in my house is 155 Volts Peak and it's fed by a 311 Volts Peak mains supply. That doesn't mean my house has any higher voltage than yours - It's still 110V RMS & 220V RMS mains. the 155 peak voltage isn't "fake" voltage; it's just a different way of measuring the same thing.

It's really no different than measuring length or distance. You can say something is 1 foot long, 12 inches, or 30 centimeters. Are any of those measurements fake? Is any measurement better than any other? Does one make you feel better because the number is bigger? As long as you include the measurement method with the figure, everyone should be able to understand what you're talking about, but it doesn't change the physical attributes one bit. I'm not sure how to put it any other way that's clearer.

most people dont understand this and dont understand the measurement method either!and 1 foot is 1 foot 10 watts average is not 10 watts pep its 10 watts period.i think doc has explained this best if you like your meter to slap all over the place then pep is for you!if you like to know what your radio is really doing then average is for you.

 

[jazzsinger]

most people dont understand this and dont understand the measurement method either!and 1 foot is 1 foot 10 watts average is not 10 watts pep its 10 watts period.i think doc has explained this best if you like your meter to slap all over the place then pep is for you!if you like to know what your radio is really doing then average is for you.

why not be more accurate and say you don't understand how avg and pep differ.

its quite simple.

you put a 10 watt carrier into an avg meter or a pep meter you'll read 10w.theres no audio/forward swing to measure.

if you modulate that carrier to 100% modulation with a sine wave you'll read 15w on the avg meter and approx 39w on the pep meter,its not rocket science assuming you have an accurate meter which most people don't have which causes most confusion.

the difference in readout is obviously due to the avg meter reading the avg power of carrier plus audio and the pep meter reading the peak power of the carrier plus audio.they still both mean the same thing to anyone who understands power and the differing ways it can be mesured.

if you think communications gear manufacturers are bad for giving different ways of measuring power then the hifi market,especially the low end stuff will blow your mind as they invent new ways of makng numbers appear bigger all the time.

no matter what the numbers are like moleculo says if your clued up then they will all take you back to your same preferred way of reading them with a bit of simple conversion arithmetic.

 

[wahlrite]

@%100 modulation your resting carrier should rise to approximately 1 and 1/2 times the resting carrier, so 100 watts should go from a resting carrier of 100 watts to 150 watts pep.

and that statement is why CB'ers will ALWAYS be stuck in the MUD,

ANYONE with a 50 dollar oscilloscope, and a bird meter with a PEP kit can tell you you are FLAT OUT WRONG.

Test it for your self. You will find the same conclusion the rest of us did.

a properly modulated ( no pinch or flat topping ) AM carrier will
@ %50 modulation = dead key X 2 = PEP
@ %100 modulation = dead key X 4 = PEP
@ %125 modulation = dead key X 6 = PEP
@ %150 modulation = dead key X 8 = PEP
@ %200 modulation = dead key X 16 = PEP

So a properly modulated %100 carrier will rise 4 times the resting or dead key watt.

So if you have a 50 watt dead key. and you modulate to 200 watt PEP, you could assume that you are in fact modulating near %100.

So if you have a 500 watt dead key. and you modulate to 2000 watt PEP, you could assume that you are in fact modulating near %100.

So if you have a 50 watt dead key. and you modulate to 100 watt PEP, you could assume that you are in fact modulating near %50.

Also remember that modulation is loudness ! not watts

This should stir the pot real well !!!

 

[wahlrite]

I like PEP because if I type it out here I only have to yous 2 different buttons on my keyboard instead of three.

Now this is something most of these guys can understand, on 2 buttons to push

YEA !!!