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GROUND LOOPS IN MOBILE INSTALLS

W5LZ,

you are probably talking about an amateur transceiver, in which the chassis ground and the negative power wire are connected.

in CB radios, they still isolate the chassis ground from the PC board ground by using bypass disc caps all around the PC board.

find an old CB you have lying around and check that.

just FYI,
LC
 
this quote from K0BG's site is another reason i am fairly certain that a ground loop is my problem.

"If you cause a potential to appear between two factory ground points (e.g., ground lead to a seat frame, positive lead to the battery), the resulting ground loop may manifest itself as an RFI problem. This is especially important when high currents are involved (amplifier use for example). Split beads, brute force filters, and ground straps ad nauseam, won't cure the apparent RFI simply because RFI is not the cause!"

we are slowly but surely getting to the bottom of this! LOL
LC
 
i caint figger how all yoins caint find ground..ever time i goes ta drinkin i fall down n ever time when i fall i find the ground..
 
"we are slowly but surely getting to the bottom of this!"

not really.

no one has made the distinction between rf and dc ground loops. in a situation that occurred just a couple of days ago a customer called me after receiving his Galaxy DX66V after having it serviced complaining (and demonstrating it over the phone) that even with the mic gain completely shut off that he was not only experiencing feedback through the talkback but as he opened the mic gain audio feedback was also readily apparent and made the comment that the problem must have been with the radio, even though none of these symptoms appeared on the bench after the service was performed.

come to find out a friend of his was helping him install it in his personal vehicle while both of these guys were at work, both of them in the military and calling from their military base. the FIRST question i asked was just exactly how was it installed and wired into the vehicle to which the customer replied, we wired it directly to the battery, the antenna was a 10K mounted to the roof and the radio was installed just up in front of the antenna mounting location in the ceiling.

i also asked what the approximate length of the power lines were to which he replied, "about 7 feet long, both B+ and B- lines. i heard his buddy in the background comment, "what's all of that got to do with anything"?

after advising him as to the corrections necessary to completely eliminate the problem he called me back 5 minutes later at my suggestion and the problem completely disappeared and not only was there no longer any rf feedback but no vestige of audio feedback was apparent even with the mic gain fully open.

the radio now operated exactly as it did on the bench, flawlessly.

now, with only the information provided during our conversation, how would you advise him to eliminate the problem? i'll give you a clue, the problem was eliminated in 5 easy steps.
 
"we are slowly but surely getting to the bottom of this!"

not really.

no one has made the distinction between rf and dc ground loops. in a situation that occurred just a couple of days ago a customer called me after receiving his Galaxy DX66V after having it serviced complaining (and demonstrating it over the phone) that even with the mic gain completely shut off that he was not only experiencing feedback through the talkback but as he opened the mic gain audio feedback was also readily apparent and made the comment that the problem must have been with the radio, even though none of these symptoms appeared on the bench after the service was performed.

come to find out a friend of his was helping him install it in his personal vehicle while both of these guys were at work, both of them in the military and calling from their military base. the FIRST question i asked was just exactly how was it installed and wired into the vehicle to which the customer replied, we wired it directly to the battery, the antenna was a 10K mounted to the roof and the radio was installed just up in front of the antenna mounting location in the ceiling.

i also asked what the approximate length of the power lines were to which he replied, "about 7 feet long, both B+ and B- lines. i heard his buddy in the background comment, "what's all of that got to do with anything"?

after advising him as to the corrections necessary to completely eliminate the problem he called me back 5 minutes later at my suggestion and the problem completely disappeared and not only was there no longer any rf feedback but no vestige of audio feedback was apparent even with the mic gain fully open.

the radio now operated exactly as it did on the bench, flawlessly.

now, with only the information provided during our conversation, how would you advise him to eliminate the problem? i'll give you a clue, the problem was eliminated in 5 easy steps.

maybe they rolled up the windows.
 
"
now, with only the information provided during our conversation, how would you advise him to eliminate the problem? i'll give you a clue, the problem was eliminated in 5 easy steps.


OK...if nobody else will try to figure this out, I'll give it a shot.

1. Make certain that the antenna mount is properly grounded to the roof of the car.

2. Check SWR. If it's way off, check the coax. Make sure the PL259s are properly installed on the cable, and when the coax is installed be certain that the PL259s are fully seated and tight.

3. Move the radio to a location further away from the antenna base

4. Run the power leads as a twisted pair to help reject RFI and EMI.

5. Pray.
 
freecell,

i would tell him to take the vehicle to your shop, as i cant seem to get anywhere with my situation.
then i would ask him to call me after you were done and tell me what you did.

i appreciate you following the thread, but i did what you asked by asking questions and you havent responded to them yet.

thanks,
LC
 
Freecell, he didn't happen to be using a powered external speaker did he (like a Texas Ranger)?
 
did it have to do with the radio's chassis being connected to the vehicle's chassis and also having the antenna coax connected to it?

maybe it had to do with the length of the power wires?

if this is indeed a lesson, i am willing to learn.

thanks,
LC
 
well, i guess it cant hurt to guess. LOL

the fact that the guy called you back in five minutes says to me that whatever you told him to do didnt entail rewiring anything, or something complicated.

so, im guessing you told him to unmount the radio from the chassis, and try the test again.

or maybe you told him to cut the ground wire going to the battery and either connect it to the vehicle's chassis where the ground wire from the battery meets the body of the vehicle.

whatever it was, it didnt require too much re-doing on the customer's part.

seems like one or two steps instead of five.

hmmm....
LC
 
Your answer lies within:

Basics:

There are 2 principle forms of ground (mobile):

1. DC Ground: In the car, it is the wire which connect from the ground stud on the rear of the radio to the negative terminal of the battery, or ideally the engine block.

2. RF Ground : is a low-impedance path for RF to reach earth and which is designed to dissipate rather than radiate RF energy.

Ground Loops:
Ground loop is a condition where all the electrical equipments "grounds" aren't at the same electrical potential, namely zero volts AC and DC.
When two or more devices are connected to a common ground through different paths, a ground loop occurs. Currents flow through these multiple paths and produce voltages represents unwanted signal radiation. The unwanted signal radiation can cause Radio Frequency Interference (RFI), Television Interference (TVI), noise or hum, etc.


Ground in Vehicles
In the environment of the mobile antenna system many factors contribute to the radiation of an excellent RF signal, but none more than the quality of the RF ground. The RF ground represents the "unseen half" of your antenna system. The visible half is the whip or other radiating element. Failure to construct a good RF ground inhibits the efficiency of the system's radiation and can present danger to the operator through RF feedback.

In mobile installations, the chassis or body represents a ground plane: a common circuit return or reference point for your signal. The signal radiates outward from the radiating element and flows back to the radio via the ground plane. Then the polarity switches and this process reverses, back and forth, in synchronization with the transmitted sine wave.

In constructing an efficient antenna system for your vehicle always make sure that your frame or car body are at RF ground by connecting them electrically and physically with the engine block. The engine block acts like a terminal strip or "bus" for your car's electrical system: the negative terminal of the battery and all other electrical grounds are connected to it as the central meeting point. The engine, in turn, is bound to the vehicle chassis through the engine mounting bolts, though not necessarily grounded! In today's modern vehicles insulating elements, i.e., rubber motor mounts, are used to cushion vibration. At DC a solid path to ground exists, and even if this path should somehow fail, the car's body ground can act as a reserve. At RF frequencies however, an acceptable DC ground can sometimes present such a high impedance to your antenna system that it is, in effect, no ground at all!

To ensure your mobile antenna environment is at RF ground, simply bind the block to the chassis with tinned copper braid. Use short runs so as to avoid introducing any inductive reactance which will impede the flow of the RF current to ground.

Signs that the quality of RF ground may be lacking :

1. Difficulty or inability to tune to an acceptable SWR match with your manual or automatic antenna tuner. (Assumes you have confirmed in advance that the antenna is already resonant "off the system".)
2. Noticing a waving up and down of the SWR reading on the meter during transmitting while the vehicle is in motion.
3. Noticing that the radio is "kicking", (cutting out and turning itself off) during transmission, an indication of significant RF feedback.
4. Getting an RF "bite" on the radio equipment or during transmission, an indication that excessive RF energy is feeding back from the antenna system or that the system is floating above ground potential.

Remedies require a review of how your antenna system is mounted to the car, specifically :

1. Is there a good physical and electrical connection between your antenna's ground and the vehicle frame/body?
2. If utilizing the body as the ground plane is there isolation from RF ground which may be causing the RF return path to float above ground potential?
3. Do you have faulty shield connections along your transmission line?
4. Are ground loops present in your system?

Based upon your assessment of the above, take action as necessary to clean up any weak points you uncover.

In your vehicle ground loops are often unknowingly created as a consequence of frantic attempts to ground out noise sources by braiding "everything" one can think of to the nearest metal available. This is most likely when working under the hood to suppress noise in the antenna and power supply systems, but can also occur when your antenna is inadequately mounted to the frame/chassis. In reading the nature of the formation of ground loops above, you can see how, in braiding to the nearest available metal, series connections could very well have crept into your design.

Remember: if you are not at ground potential, RF currents may still be circulating within your ground system which may then be re-radiated as RF noise that can be received by the antenna system. To eliminate any loops in your ground, the concept of applying a centralized ground point, as described earlier, applies to the mobile configuration. In adopting a single point for your vehicle, use the frame/chassis as your "ground stake", if you will. It is the common metal to all other metal points of your vehicle, and provides an excellent ground plane for your vertical element to work against.

Automotive RFI
Large body sheet metal surfaces can float above RF ground if they are electrically insulated by rubber body and engine-cushioning devices designed to absorb road noise, rattles and vibration.
As a result, RF currents can be encouraged to circulate on your hood, trunk, quarter-panels or other body surfaces which can act as small antennas, re-radiating noise signals from the ignition system and associated components.

To solve the problem, follow the steps :

1. Bonding body sheet metal parts to ground by utilizing a ½" to 1" wide tinned flat copper braid, connect the :
* Hood and trunk lid to car frame (chassis);
* Exhaust system (at several points along the length of the system) to the frame;
* Bumpers (metallic) to the frame;
* Engine block to the frame.

2. Shielding the spark plug wires.

3. Shielding the distributor and/or ignition module with allunium foil.

Hope this helps.

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