I was wondering what would be the best way to ground your radio equipment when it is located on a second story ? I know it is to be the shortest path but if too long it works against itself and causes problems. Anyone know of any salutions ?
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Grounding equipment
- Thread starter Sonwatcher
- Start date
There are three types of "ground": Safety ground, electrical ground and RF ground.
Unless you're using something like an end-fed wire for an antenna you probably don't need to worry about an RF ground (sometimes called a counterpoise, or radial field). Beams, dipoles and many verticals don't need RF grounds.
Each piece of equipment should have its case bonded to a single point, and that point should be connected to the building's electrical ground by means of the grounding terminal in the receptacle. That takes care of the electrical and safety grounds.
If you're talking about lightning protection, you'd probably do well to research that for your specific installation.
Unless you're using something like an end-fed wire for an antenna you probably don't need to worry about an RF ground (sometimes called a counterpoise, or radial field). Beams, dipoles and many verticals don't need RF grounds.
Each piece of equipment should have its case bonded to a single point, and that point should be connected to the building's electrical ground by means of the grounding terminal in the receptacle. That takes care of the electrical and safety grounds.
If you're talking about lightning protection, you'd probably do well to research that for your specific installation.
Sonwatcher said:
So "second story" means base station..
The reason to ground your station is for lightening protection. This ground is done at a single point somewhere between your antenna mast and where the feedline enters your house. This is called a "safety ground".
The other issue that often comes up in this context is "RF in the shack". The cause is transmit RF coming back down the feedline back to your station. The solution for coax fed antennas is to put ferrite beads on the coax near the antenna feed point, these absorb the RF on the coax shield. The RF energy in coax is on the inside. As far as balance line feed to the antenna.. if stray RF at the station is an issue, then the balun or antenna tuner needs to be installed remotely such as at the entry point to the house. It should go without saying that a broken ground connection on coax connector would show as poor VSWR, and this would be seen first as bad VSWR rather than RF in the shack.
The last issue that arises is TVI. If harmonics are causing this, then a low-pass filter is the requirement. If the antenna system is radiating into the neighbors, then possibly guy wires need more insulators, or the antenna isn't mounted high enough. Also the transmit RF on the feeding coax is potentially an issue as well, requiring same ferrites mentioned before.
B
BOOTY MONSTER
Guest
theres several really good articles here about grounding and noise controll here,,,,,, http://www.iceradioproducts.com/10.html . the articles arnt very long and dont use a lot of $20 words .
dudmuck is "transmit RF coming back down the feedline back to your station" you mentioned AKA "common mode current" problems ? if so theres some good info here http://www.hamuniverse.com/testingswr.html about 1/4 way down the page in the "Feedline Issues" section on it and a fix . if not theres still some good stuff there to read .
dudmuck is "transmit RF coming back down the feedline back to your station" you mentioned AKA "common mode current" problems ? if so theres some good info here http://www.hamuniverse.com/testingswr.html about 1/4 way down the page in the "Feedline Issues" section on it and a fix . if not theres still some good stuff there to read .
lords
Active Member
Sonwatcher said:
well we know it ain't a shack so thats not a problem ...
as for the ground its like feed line up to 100 foot and then you have a loss....as I work with a lot of electricians and explained this to them and they all say the same...so shortest ground is a theory just like cutting the coax in a mobile for better SWR...remember we are talking 'base station setup on a second story,not a shack or mobile.....
B
BOOTY MONSTER
Guest
i wouldnt trust water pipes for grounding . to many soldered joints and if there is even a 1 inch section repaired with pvc pipe you have absolutely no ground then . i dont know , but i suspect that the plumbing in the kitchen being so close to refrigerators , microwaves and such could add some noise If it is all coppper . why not just run a ground wire out where your coax comes in and ground below there NOT using the same ground rod as the antenna (if the antenna is grounded) .
lords
Active Member
BOOTY MONSTER, copper is a shield and a shield for blocking many things
it don't pick up this noise you refer to and is 1 hell of a RF shield but costly
as for water pipes not a problem on the solder joints being stable
there not leaking water right
but the pvc pipe part would be a bummer...lol
as for as grounding all it takes is a nother ground rod in the ground...
it don't pick up this noise you refer to and is 1 hell of a RF shield but costly
as for water pipes not a problem on the solder joints being stable
there not leaking water right
but the pvc pipe part would be a bummer...lol
as for as grounding all it takes is a nother ground rod in the ground...
B
BOOTY MONSTER
Guest
thanks lords . i didnt think copper was a shield except when it is used to protect something inside of it (center conductor of coax,electronic components and such) . i do have another question though . since copper is a RF shield how come its so commonly used in antenna coils and coax cables ? wouldnt it resist or shield any rf signal from going through it ?
:beer Silent Key :CptnMorg
:beer Silent Key :CptnMorg
Copper is NOT a shield unless it surrounds something like a wire bundle etc. and then only if at least one end of it is connected to ground. It makes an excellant low resistance conductor to ground.There is nothing wrong with using the COLD water pipe as a ground if there is no plastic pipe in the system that may break the path to ground. It is common, and maybe law, in all areas to connect the cold water pipe to the AC power entrance ground via at least 6 ga wire.
"I was wondering what would be the best way to ground your radio equipment when it is located on a second story ? I know it is to be the shortest path but if too long it works against itself and causes problems. Anyone know of any salutions ?"
a solution for your specific circumstances cannot be arrived at until the information as to the antenna type is provided. it's apparent that your inquiry has to do with the rf return path ground. without knowing the antenna type it's difficult to make suggestions that may afford an effective solution.
a solution for your specific circumstances cannot be arrived at until the information as to the antenna type is provided. it's apparent that your inquiry has to do with the rf return path ground. without knowing the antenna type it's difficult to make suggestions that may afford an effective solution.
if this is a strictly 26-28mhz type of setup, then i wouldnt worry about it too much.
if you find that you have RF in the room after everything is hooked up, just add or subtract a foot or so from the length of your ground wire.
the ground wire has to be resonant to cause problems, and whatever length of ground wire you have; its only going to be resonant on a narrow range of freqs., so the chances of it causing a problem are there, but you shouldnt hold up your install because of it.
now, if this is an HF 1-30mhz setup, and you plan on using different types of wire antennas, then you need to be more concerned about the length of your ground wire, but again, its only going to matter at certain freqs.
for a CB type setup, just stay away from 8-9 feet, and 16-18 feet. you should be good to go.
for grounding; solid is better than stranded, flat is better than round.
im sure others can add much more insight than i; i just dont want you to think that you cant run your equipment without taking care of this "issue".
later,
loosecannon
if you find that you have RF in the room after everything is hooked up, just add or subtract a foot or so from the length of your ground wire.
the ground wire has to be resonant to cause problems, and whatever length of ground wire you have; its only going to be resonant on a narrow range of freqs., so the chances of it causing a problem are there, but you shouldnt hold up your install because of it.
now, if this is an HF 1-30mhz setup, and you plan on using different types of wire antennas, then you need to be more concerned about the length of your ground wire, but again, its only going to matter at certain freqs.
for a CB type setup, just stay away from 8-9 feet, and 16-18 feet. you should be good to go.
for grounding; solid is better than stranded, flat is better than round.
im sure others can add much more insight than i; i just dont want you to think that you cant run your equipment without taking care of this "issue".
later,
loosecannon
"An antenna system using properly installed and connected coaxial or balanced lines would never require an RF station ground." "All currents flowing out to the antenna would be perfectly matched by equal currents flowing back on the second conductor, be it a shield or the second identical conductor of a balanced line".
"An RF ground in the shack is absolutely NOT required unless something is wrong with our antenna system".
http://www.w8ji.com/ground_systems.htm
"An RF ground in the shack is absolutely NOT required unless something is wrong with our antenna system".
http://www.w8ji.com/ground_systems.htm
I haven't done it in a while but when I did hook up a ground on the radio and equipment it resulted in rf in the room. I use an aluminum groundplane for an antenna. The length of the ground wire was around 20 ft. from the set. I haven't done it again because of that problem . I have read that too long of a ground wire can cause the problem I had.
lords
Active Member
Sonwatcher said:
I had that same problem in the past grounded my unit(cb 27Mhz 40,40up,40down) to a cold water pipe and or wall socket from my second story,went through my stereo and my surround sound system! now I haven't ran this ground and had no problems at all, after 2 years....the antenna is a maco V5000 with a 50 foot flat ground strap from the antenna mass to the 6ft copper rod in the ground
course we know what that is for