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isolation from mast

Yea HiDef it was a lot of words, even Moleculo complained to me once about the way I post.

Do you think I could learn to express myself with a couple of smiley faces and a couple of Snoop Dog words like some others do on these forums. It sure would help me out as I'm trying to splain' my opinions and the where-what-for's to all the "one liner" peckerwoods out there. I ought to know better, but sometimes I forget, "...they either can't or ain't payin' attention anyway."


I guess I was playin' hookie on that day in high school when they taught the proper way to carry on a discussion using the "complain and bitch" technique---rather than try and make a prudent argument with a point of view. You were doing good for a while.
 
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i dont know enough to add anything to this thread , but just wanted to tell you guys im enjoying reading and re-reading it , and to thank yall for your comments/insight .
 
Hi Marconi,

If the antenna has a common mode current condition it needs a resonant counterpoise. The counterpoise can be in parallel with a mast. The antenna not be isolated.

Not all antennas with a resonant counterpoise are completely free of common mode current.Sometimes more has to be done to achieve isolation to minimise the effects of common mode current.
 
Not all antennas with a resonant counterpoise are completely free of common mode current.Sometimes more has to be done to achieve isolation to minimise the effects of common mode current.

Completely free is a useless relative term. Nothing is perfect. How about some real numbers?

Show me one commercial ground plane antenna with the ground plane isolated from the mast. And commercial means not someone working out of their garage on weekends.
 
The way I see it is cmc's are searching for a path to ground and by isolating the antenna you break the path there and then by choking the coax then you're doing all you can to stop it.
 
Completely free is a useless relative term. Nothing is perfect. How about some real numbers?

Show me one commercial ground plane antenna with the ground plane isolated from the mast. And commercial means not someone working out of their garage on weekends.

HiDef, I can't show you a commercial type of GP antenna that isolates their antenna from the mast, but I can show you numerious antennas that don't isolate at all, and in the vast majority of those cases the feed line is just as much. maybe more of the radiating element as the radiator itself.

The goal of isolation is not just to be different, but to isolate (decouple) the raised ground plane as much as possible from the real Earth so the feed line does not radiate. The process of doing this also, to some degree, helps eliminate Common Mode Currents on the feed line by making the differential between Earth ground and the ground potential at the GP system appear with little affect. This is the basic cause of CMC anyway and unless you believe that CMC don't affect the antennas radiating pattern---then no wonder you hold the opinions you talk about. I don't think anyone believes you are not entitled to your opinion.

Since we can't see CMC's or the RF pattern in and our antenna systems we have to rely on the generally accepted science---and that likely won't favor your position that isolation is a relatively worthless consideration. I don't know electrical circuit design, but when I look at it I see a world of isolation ideas incorporated in the design. If that is not true, then just call me foolish.

hang loose
 
stolen from .... Antenna Notes
..........................
"ANTENNA NOTES FOR A DUMMY
Restricted Space Antennas
by Walt Fair, Jr., W5ALT

Ground vs. Radials

The need for radials with a ground mounted vertical has invoked lots of discussion among amateurs over the years. The literature contains many references to how many radials are needed, how long they should be and what affect they will have on the performance of a vertical antenna. And yet lots of confusion still exists. In this section we will take a look at ground mounted and above ground mounted vertical antennas, especially with respect to the radials and try to make some sense out of the subject.

Ground Mounted Vertical. First, let's look at a ground mounted vertical antenna. As shown in the sketch, it consists of a vertical radiator that is mounted directly on the ground and fed at the base. As should be apparent, in the case of a perfect ground, the potential (voltage) with respect to ground is precisely zero on the side of the feed point attached to ground. That means that the entire voltage of the source is applied to the vertical radiator. This is different than a dipole, where the voltage swing is applied to both sides of a dipole.

In a dipole, the voltage with respect to ground is equal and opposite on both sides of the feed point. In a ground mounted vertical with a perfect ground, the voltage on the ground side of the feed point is always zero with respect to ground. This is inherently an unbalanced antenna and there's not much that can be done to change that. It will also have a take off angle of zero degrees and an impedance of 36 ohms at resonance.

Note that a perfect ground has zero resistance and reactance. Therefore there can be no voltage differences, no matter how much current is flowing in the ground, and therefore no losses. So far so good.

But what happens in the "real world"? In reality, there is no such thing as a perfect ground with zero resistance and reactance. Real ground conditions do indeed induce losses and there are voltage gradients caused by ground currents around an antenna. So what can be done?

One approach is to make the ground as close to perfect as we can. That means putting a metal plate or mesh or a large number of radials at the surface of the ground to decrease the ground resistance and impedance. Obviously, the more metal we can put down, the better it will approach a perfect ground and the more efficient the antenna will perform. That's why we often hear the guidelines that "the more radials, the better." An alternative is to mount the antenna over salt water, which has a very low resistivity and makes an excellent ground. We are simply trying to turn our real ground into something as close to a perfect ground as possible.

Above Ground Verticals. In a vertical antenna mounted above ground, the situation is a little different. As shown in the figure, the antenna is usually fed at the base of the vertical element, however, the radials are not directly connected to the ground and there is nothing to keep them at ground potential. In this situation, the radials will have current flowing on them and at the feed point the current on the vertical element will be balanced by the current flowing on all of the radials. This is still not a balanced antenna, though, since the currents are not symmetrical around the feed point. In fact they flow vertically on the vertical element and horizontally (or at some other angle) on the radials.

Now, since there is current flowing on the radials, there will also be radiation from the radials, but we want to minimize the radiation in order to maintain the desireable properties of the vertical antenna, including low angle of radiation. One way to do that is to arrange the radials symmetrically about the base of the vertical. In the case of symmetric radials, the current in each radial is flowing in an opposite direction (away from the center) to the current on the radial directly opposite to it and the total radiation in the horizontal plane will cancel. Therefore, in that respect, the radials will have little effect on the low angle radiation.

But not all is perfect. There will also be radiation vertically from the radials and some of that will interact with the ground. Of the part that interacts with the ground, some radiation will be reflected and some ground currents will be induced, leading to ground losses. But that's not what we wanted!

So what can be done? One obvious possibility is to mount the antenna as high as possible, thereby minimizing the interaction with the ground and avoiding ground losses as much as possible. Hence the guideline "The higher the better". The other possibility is to add as many radials as possible in order to minimize the current on each radial. The current on each radial will be equal to the total current on the vertical element divided by the number of radials, so "the more the better".

Another way to look at the effect of radials in a vertical mounted above ground is that the radials are shielding the antenna from ground. In effect we are trying to create an "artificial ground" that is better than the real ground that mother nature gave us to work with. From that viewpoint we would like to have as many radials as possible, as long as possible. Again, consistent with the guidelines commonly quoted by amateurs. However, in my opinion, that viewpoint is too simplistic, since it ignores the fact that we can never completely shield the antenna from the ground in practice. No matter what, there will always be a potential difference between the radials and the ground, so there will be some interaction. It seems much better to forget about the analogy of shielding and just treat the antenna and radials as a complete antenna system that will interact with the ground to some extent. The important point is that, whether we want to think about them separately or not, the radials are part of the antenna.

Radial Angle. It has been stated many times that angling the radials downward at a 45o angle will improve an antenna. Let's see what happens when the radials are not horizontal, as in the ideal case above.

gpv04-grf.jpg


The above graph shows the impedance, the take off angle and the gain of a ground plane vertical as a function of the radial angle. In all cases, the lowest part of the radials was 10 ft above an average ground, which would represent mounting the antenna so the radials don't cause problems for people walking nearby. As can be seen, the gain doesn't vary much at all and neither does the take off angle. Certainly we probably could not detect the small differences in gain and take off angle shown. However, the impedance does vary from some 70 ohms for a vertical dipole to about 25 ohms when the radials are horizontal.

The implication of this graph is that the angle of the radials will have a minimal effect on the antenna perfomance, but it will change the feed point impedance. The minimal effect on the radiation can be understood by noting that the radials are symmetrical and their radiation in the horizontal plane cancels, as previously noted. However, somewhere around 45o the feed point impedance is very close to 50 ohms at resonance. So from an impedance matching standpoint, there is a reason to make the radials slope downward at an angle of about 45o. Changing the angle on the radials may make the antenna perform a little better, but it will also be somewhat easier to match.

Bent Radials. Since we're interested in limited space antennas, one common problem is what to do when you don't have room for the radials. After all, the radials for a 40m groundplane vertical require about 33 ft of space around the antenna.

Fortunately, the exact position of the radials isn't all that important. Just as we noted that we can bend a dipole all around and it will still work, so we can bend the radials around, too. In fact, as long as we keep the radials symmetric, there will be little effect on the antenna performance, since radiation from the radials will still cancel. Although the computed performance isn't shown here, it is even possible to arrange the radials in a spiral pattern around the base of the vertical and still maintain performance and impedance characteristics.

So, just as for the dipole, the ground plane vertical can be modified within reason and still be made to work under less than ideal circumstances."

...............................
 
i,ve read your sapposed to do this with omni antennas..if this is so hows come it dont tell you to do it in the instructions ?

this why the word "modification" exists.... if it were not for making things better, dude, we would not be on this forum having this discussion.
 
Booty',
I'm afraid Walt has a couple of things in that sort of backwards, or at least 'not right'. The first thing is the premise that a 'perfect' ground is zero resistance and zero reactance, which it isn't. I've never run across having to 'add' resistance to a 'ground', and have never heard of anyone else having to either. It's always been the other way around, getting rid of some resistance/reactance.

If there is always zero resistance on one of an antenna's input terminals (and there are always two of those thingys) there can be no radiation from that antenna. So if a 'perfect' ground means there is no resistance on one terminal it also means that antenna isn't gonna radiate, so is a 'perfectly' terrible antenna. That doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?
To make it just a little bit more fun, since RF is AC, it means that the (+) and (-) parts of that signal switch 'half's of the antenna they go to once every cycle. So, half the time that (-) 'ground'/radial system is the radiating prtion of the antenna and that vertical part is the 'ground'/radial system. Wait! There's more fun. It also means that if you send current into that (+) part of the antenna, then there has to be current coming out of the (-) part of the antenna. Otherwise, no radiation.
Mixing AC characteristics with DC characteristics just doesn't work, gotta think of each in a slightly different manner. I think Walt may have miss-thought part of his ideas.
- 'Doc
 
ALT's paper is not about 27 mhz antennas.

It seems to be about antennas used on 4 times that wavelength and longer.

Like I said before, CB fixed antennas are usually mounted at least one wavelength above ground. The ground interaction is much different from a typical hambone ver-trickle.

Same thing with the last two links I read here. Someone puts up a page about MW and low H.F. verticals and the text is assumed to apply to an 11 meter antenna.
 
The way I see it is cmc's are searching for a path to ground and by isolating the antenna you break the path there and then by choking the coax then you're doing all you can to stop it.

This is what some of us are hoping. The idea has been suggested here quite clearly. My contention is the amount of common mode current found on the coaxial feed to a properly designed and tuned ground plane is so small pyhsical isolation and a balun will not improve performance by any useful amount.
Same for coaxial sleeve decoupling. Some of those are not designed very well though so there is room for improvement.
 
HiDef, I can't show you a commercial type of GP antenna that isolates their antenna from the mast, but I can show you numerious antennas that don't isolate at all, and in the vast majority of those cases the feed line is just as much. maybe more of the radiating element as the radiator itself.

The goal of isolation is not just to be different, but to isolate (decouple) the raised ground plane as much as possible from the real Earth so the feed line does not radiate. The process of doing this also, to some degree, helps eliminate Common Mode Currents on the feed line by making the differential between Earth ground and the ground potential at the GP system appear with little affect. This is the basic cause of CMC anyway and unless you believe that CMC don't affect the antennas radiating pattern---then no wonder you hold the opinions you talk about. I don't think anyone believes you are not entitled to your opinion.

Since we can't see CMC's or the RF pattern in and our antenna systems we have to rely on the generally accepted science---and that likely won't favor your position that isolation is a relatively worthless consideration. I don't know electrical circuit design, but when I look at it I see a world of isolation ideas incorporated in the design. If that is not true, then just call me foolish.

hang loose

How can the feedline EVER radiate more R.F. than the vertical portion?

I know all too well what the goal is.

We CAN see elimination of CMC with proper instrumentation. First it has to exist.

Like I said, someone who has isolated his antenna should rig up a knife switch and a string to close/open it for a proper experiment.
 
How can the feedline EVER radiate more R.F. than the vertical portion?

I know all too well what the goal is.

We CAN see elimination of CMC with proper instrumentation. First it has to exist.

Like I said, someone who has isolated his antenna should rig up a knife switch and a string to close/open it for a proper experiment.
I will once I get the time
 

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