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Need advice!


never mind i got my answer the easy way....and I will be using this on my Spitfire427 beam....So this means for the gain well worth it)

Until next time SI-GIN...


I was convinced in those days that if I could just get another 20 watts of output from my transmitter that it would make all the difference in the world at the receiving end. If I could just get those extra 20 watts that rare DX operator in a distance land would see my signal jump from a pitifully weak whisper to a loud boom that he could not ignore, and I would get that contact. Today I know that little extra power would not have made any difference at all. However, I still have an intense desire to push my transceiver to its maximum power output to get a DX contact. But it doesn’t stop there. I want every db of gain that I can possibly get out of my antenna. As far as coax is concerned, I want that big, heavy, hard to handle, expensive coax because I don’t want to loose any of my valuable watts getting from my transmitter to the antenna. Does all of this pushing, shoving, and optimization really make a difference? Probably not!

It turns out that you must increase the output power of your transceiver by at least 3 db in order for the person you are talking with to notice any change in your signal strength. For your signal to sound twice as loud, you must increase your power out by about 9 db.

How much is a 3 db increase in power? A 3 db power gain is equal to a times 2 increase in power (3 db = x2). So, if your transceiver is running 100 watts, you must increase your transceiver’s output to 200 watts in order for the person you are talking with to notice any increase in your power. If you wanted your signal to sound twice as loud, you must increase your power to 800 watts (9 db = 3 db + 3 db + 3 db = x2 x2 x2 = x8)!. Clearly, increasing power by 20 watts, say from 100 to 120 watts, is not going to make any difference at all to the person receiving your signal. On the other hand, if you cut your power in half from 100 watts to 50 (a 3 db decrease in power), the other operator will hardly notice any drop at all in your signal strength. So why beat your transceiver into the ground by running it at full power? If you run at 75 watts instead of 100, your transceiver will run cooler and no one that you talk to will know the difference. There is someone who may notice the difference however, your neighbors. If you are having interference problems, cutting your power level in half could solve those problems without having any noticeable affect on your ability to make contacts. For example, when I operated on 10 meters at 100 watts, my lawn sprinklers would turn on whenever I keyed my transceiver. When I dropped to 50 watts, the problem went away. Running at 50 watts turned out to be a great water conservation technique.

What about antennas? The same 3 db rule applies. You can go to a lot of trouble and expense on 40 and 80 meters putting up phased vertical arrays to achieve 2 or 3 db of gain. But 3 db of gain will hardly be noticeable to anyone listening to your signal, so why bother? The threshold in antenna cost verses performance gain is around 6 db. If your antenna provides 6 db of gain, operators listening to your signal will notice a difference. Your signal will not be twice as loud, remember you have to get 9 db of gain for that to happen, but at 6 db the gain will be noticeable. The table below puts antenna cost verses performance gain somewhat into perspective. This table compares various yagi beam configurations to the performance of a dipole. The table shows the db gain, relative to a dipole, achieved by each of the antennas. The antennas get more expensive as you go down the table. The table also indicates the increase in signal strength observed by the S-meter on a distant transceiver that is receiving your signal.
 
Hey Lords, can you explain that to me?
I know that to double sound it needs to be increased by 3db. If you run 2 10 inch speakers each recieveng 100 watts, they will sound twice as loud and measure 3db louder than one of those speakers @100 watts, that is physics and reality. I have measured it in everything from a church to a roadster with an RTA. Not to mention if it didn't work my torpedos wouldn't be able to find a barge with 5 loud clunky diesels running. So why is it different in radios? I'm not doubting that it is, I just don't understand why.

It seems to me that if I am listening to a signal, and the individual transmitting changes something that makes my speaker increase output by 3db, he has doubled how loud he sounds to me. I have no idea how much power it would take to make that increase ( your post indicates tripling power,) but I know 3db doubles sound.

Thanks

Ron
 
noyb72 said:
Hey Lords, can you explain that to me?
I know that to double sound it needs to be increased by 3db. If you run 2 10 inch speakers each recieveng 100 watts, they will sound twice as loud and measure 3db louder than one of those speakers @100 watts, that is physics and reality. I have measured it in everything from a church to a roadster with an RTA. Not to mention if it didn't work my torpedos wouldn't be able to find a barge with 5 loud clunky diesels running. So why is it different in radios? I'm not doubting that it is, I just don't understand why.

It seems to me that if I am listening to a signal, and the individual transmitting changes something that makes my speaker increase output by 3db, he has doubled how loud he sounds to me. I have no idea how much power it would take to make that increase ( your post indicates tripling power,) but I know 3db doubles sound.

Thanks

Ron

The whole double your power = 3db thing is exactly the same in RF as it is in audio. Where the difference lies is that in the RF world, db relates to distance and in the audio world db relates to SPL. Just because you sent RF with twice as much power, doesn't mean that it will be twice as loud when it is received. In fact, it is only when a very close RF signal is compared to a very far away RF signal that you notice any volume change at all. There will be times that a signal giving you S-5 signal may even have more volume on your speaker than a signal that is S-6. This is because the S-5 signal may have more information (modulation) on it than the S-6.

Here is one final thought to ponder that relates to the db/SPL/distance relationship. An S-6 signal is an S-6 signal whether the person in talking or not. So, an S-5 signal with modulation could be really loud while the S-6 signal could be silent, even though the S-6 signal is 6 db over the S-5 (If you follow the -generally- accepted 6 db per S-unit rule.).

Mopar
 
lords said:
It turns out that you must increase the output power of your transceiver by at least 3 db in order for the person you are talking with to notice any change in your signal strength. For your signal to sound twice as loud, you must increase your power out by about 9 db......

If your antenna provides 6 db of gain, operators listening to your signal will notice a difference. Your signal will not be twice as loud, remember you have to get 9 db of gain for that to happen, but at 6 db the gain will be noticeable.

I agree on the 3dB and 6 dB points but what is this about 9dB in order to sound twice as loud? :? I have never heard of that in my life. Increasing power will NOT make you sound LOUDER. It will make your signal stronger but not louder. It takes a change in modulation to do that.

On edit: After rereading your post I think maybe yoyu are equating a stronger signal with being louder. It's not but a lot of folks call it the same thing. Perhaps that is what you meant?? Any way, power doubles with every 3dB so 6dB is four times while 9dB is eight times the power,not simply triple the power.
 
well mixing this post with a stereo speaker (hard wired)
has nothing to do with this post...
and now he is answered and dam good answers:)
Hell I can get a 1 S unit on someone and it has killer audio.sounds like hes right next to me(we know he power mic and prob unlimited on the audio)..and then again I can hear someone with 9 S units and weak audio...but we all know what thats all about..(stock and stock and stock) :p

now back to the subject at hand.. got the LMR 400 comming and going to try it out:)...
 
QRN you are absolutly correct and if FT1(SS) George (ma A school instructor,) were here right now I would be doing pushups until I cried for typing such a silly statement.

Mopar

One of theese days I'm going to understand this rf vs modulation thing. From my basic understanding I agree with what you said. Increase in 3db of modulation would mak e yiou twice as loud. Now, if you awnser my next question I think the heavens will open and the lock of my brain will go away and learning will occur. HOW ON EARTH DO YOU INCREASE MODULATION BY 3DB?

Don't mean to impose, just trying to learn.

Ron
 
Lords

I just went through this thread again and you are right, I am guilty of thread jacking. Please accept my apology.

If you would like I will post my last question as a new topic.

Sorry

Ron
 
noyb72 said:
One of theese days I'm going to understand this rf vs modulation thing. From my basic understanding I agree with what you said. Increase in 3db of modulation would mak e yiou twice as loud. Now, if you awnser my next question I think the heavens will open and the lock of my brain will go away and learning will occur. HOW ON EARTH DO YOU INCREASE MODULATION BY 3DB?

Don't mean to impose, just trying to learn.

Ron

You can't. Modulation isn't measured in decibels. It is measured in percentage. If you increased your modulation, the sound the receiver makes -might- end up being a 3 db increase in SPL, but there is no.... This much modulation = this much SPL on the receiver.

LMR400. Yea. Can't wait to hear how it works. (Had to stay on topic!)

Mopar
 
noyb72 said:
Lords

I just went through this thread again and you are right, I am guilty of thread jacking. Please accept my apology.

If you would like I will post my last question as a new topic.

Sorry

Ron

not a problem dude...
I can't wait for it either i am going to run it on the starduster antenna..for about 1 month doing tests and then on my 3 element spitfire 427 beam.....to see what the improvement will be..

and far as a 3db gain, what mopar2ya said :)
NOW,
going off this if you run a 100watt linear and have a friend say 20 miles away,getting 7 S units on you..and not changing nothing but the wattage to increase 3 S units you think by running 200 watts would do this..not really because there ain't much of a difference between the two,as some would think..now if you ran 400-500 you would see that increase...as Switch KIT said RF is a funny thing..
 
You are correct, of course, but I think I have found the awnser, can someone tell me if I'm wrong?

Modulation is the percentage of the information waveform that the amplifier recreates. A=360 degrees or 100%.

In the typr of radios this forum is concerned with, we are usually talking class c (less than 180 degrees,) or class a/b (180 - 360.) This has nothing to do with how loud you sound to the reciever (assuming you are the transmitter.)

What does matter is how much energy you put into the information circuit of the amp. Basically by amplifying your voice (or whatever you are transmitting.) This doesn't seem to me to have anything to do with modulation other than the fact that you are creating the information that will be modulated. This amplification should make you sound louder (increase SPL) to the reciever and an increase of 3db will, of course, double percieved sound.

It appears that you can increase this energy by using an amplifying microphone or doing the same thing that an amplifying mocrophone does only inside the transiever. It seems to me that there should also be a way to make the carrier amplifying circuit more "sensitive" or "efficient" in replication but I don't know how one would do that.

I believe that the only concerns with increasing the energy of the information is that you can distort the information before it gets to the carrier amplification stage or you can overdrive the carrier amplification stage wich will either cause serious distortion or possibly overmodulation, none of wich is good.

Apparently, the information has nothing to do with the distance you can be heard, wich is solely controlled by the carrier power. The information just has to do with how you will sound when the carier gets the information to the reciever.

However, at some point the information actually causes the carrier to increase in power and a phenomenon known as swing occurs. Swing actually increases the power of the carrier wave and is dependant on the power of the information input into the final amplification circuit. Excessive swing apperently can at times but does not as a rule have to cause distortion.

So, are there any guidelines as to how much you can amplify the signal before you introduce it to the carrier? Or do you just amp till it distorts, and then back off?

If I am FUBAR I wouldn't be suprised but this is what you guys have taught me in the last few days.

Any comments?
Ron
 
Yep, just a few.

1. You are badly confused about bias and modulation. The two have nothing to do with one another.

--The percentage of modulation is measured as compared to the carrier.

--The conduction angle has to do with bias and is unrelated to modulation. It is the amount of degrees in the 360 degree cycle that the transistor is -on-.

2. Just forget about SPL. It really doesn't apply here... Or at least not the way you want it to. If you want more SPL, turn up the volume on your receiver. If you want to modify your audio amplification circuit, then worry about how it will affect SPL (Maybe you would like to hear Prime Minister at 157 db! CLACK, CLACK, CLA..... Holy crap.... I'm deaf!). As far as RF is concerned.... Forget it. It is just confusing you.

3. Other than that, most of your post is accurate.

4. LMR400 is really nice coax.

Mopar
 

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