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Questions for 98vhp owners

TheRealPorkchop

Certified Sith Pimp
Aug 25, 2015
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I picked one of these up a few days ago, I think I got a good deal, well I did think I did anyway.

Low power is 10 watts, high is about 60. The peak power goes to about 250 regardless of the key. The average power however is where my questions start. Low is the 10w with a swing to about 40w. High swings from about 60 to 80 watts. What is this radio supposed to do?

I've watched a few review videos and one I saw, the average power was around 100 watts with around 250 peak. Makes me wonder how and if it's the correct output, why doesn't this one do that?

No limiters are removed that I can see. There is the PPE diode/resistor thingie done, looks like 300 and some odd ohms and a 914 diode. I unhooked that and the average power actually dropped. I can't seem to find anything that tells what the power should be "stock".

The guys here that have one of these, what does yours do and what have you done to it to get that?
 

It's on the solder side of the board. The location slips my mind, the transistor numbers anyway. 54 I believe, the big one on the side.
 
Yes sir, I've seen that. I believe that's for setting the dead key isn't it? That's what the radio keys on low and high, it just doesn't swing much past either. I've watched a pile of videos on YouTube and I see these doing the same keys but swinging to around 100w average.

Just wondered what it's actually supposed to do.
 
Yes, there is a swing mod in it, on the solder side of the board.

Turn the radio to low, 10w, it swings to 40w average.
Turn the radio to high, 60w, it swings to 80w average.
The peak swing is 250w regardless of the dead key.

Everything I've seen, it should be doing around 100w average, or the radios I'm watching on YouTube are. I figured since someone put that mod in it that it would replicate the numbers seen in the videos. And since it doesn't, I'm curious what your 98's are doing and if something is wrong with mine.
 
Q: What has average/RMS power have to do with the factory setting?
ANS: nothing . . .

If it is getting full swing watts; then there has to be a swing mod. Measuring %modulation with a scope will be definitive.

If you have a DK of 10w on low power; then it should swing to about 40w/peak. If you have a DK of 65w on high; then it should swing to ~260w/peak.
 
What type of meter are you using?

Several actually. I have a Coaxial Dynamics that uses elements just like a Bird, it measures average and peak. I also have an Aries triple meter, a cheap POS but it's pretty well in line with the Coaxial meter. I had a Dosy before and both it and the Aries were almost identical on measurements. I also have a Diamond meter which gives slightly less readings than the Aries.

Q: What has average/RMS power have to do with the factory setting?
ANS: nothing . . .

If it is getting full swing watts; then there has to be a swing mod. Measuring %modulation with a scope will be definitive.

If you have a DK of 10w on low power; then it should swing to about 40w/peak. If you have a DK of 65w on high; then it should swing to ~260w/peak.

Actually, it has a lot to do with factory settings. Maybe I worded it wrong, I'm wanting to know what this radio is supposed to do right out the box without any modifications such as "swing mods" or clipping/removing components. I also want to know what does it do with those modifications/removals since this radio clearly has a resistor/diode on the solder side of the board.

I've stated several times that it swings full PEP power regardless of the dead key and that it does have a "swing mod". My question has been what should that PEP swing be? And, what should the average power reading be? If the diode/resistor mod makes a radio swing full potential then shouldn't the average reading swing full just like the peak does? Every radio I've seen before this one would, I get a little tipsy sometimes out here but I'm not that tipsy...

The radio is set to the service manual from what I can see looking at CB Tricks. The lowest power setting is 10 watts of dead key/carrier. The highest is about 65 watts of dead key/carrier. With the 10 watts of carrier, injecting a 1kHz tone at the mic socket, the radio will swing to 250 watts PEP and do 40-50 watts of AVG. And with the dead key turned to 65 watts, inject the same tone, the radio swings to 250 watts PEP and 80 watts AVG.

Maybe this is correct, I do not know and that is why I am here asking. I am asking and have my doubts or curious because of several YouTube videos I've watched where obviously a swing mod was installed and from 10 watts or less of dead key, the average power is around 100 watts and the PEP is 250 or better. That's what I'm asking... is that what it should be doing and mine isn't?

Maybe it has an "NPC-RC" modification or a disabled AMC, that's my guess anyway; I take it you bought the radio second hand?

There is no disabled limiters in this radio, nothing is clipped or removed. I said it had the PPE modification because the resistor is 390 ohms. I know Richard Byrd on a somewhat personal level and he's posted several times on different forums the differences between NPC and PPE, and according to what he's said before, it's PPE and not NPC. Call it what you want to call it, there's a diode/resistor on the solder side of the board that we all know is clearly not factory installed. It connects Q54 and Q53, I assume the collector of one to the emitter of the other, that's my guess anyway.

And with that, I expect to see it swing full blast from the low dead key setting... and it does, on the peak but not on the average side. My question is what should it be swinging though? Are those videos I've seen right or wrong? Is this radio right or wrong?

I'm not interested as much in squeezing every last watt out of it as I am it working correctly for what's been done to it. If it's supposed to swing 100w average and 250 peak with that mod, that's what I want it to do. And since it's not, I'm thinking something is wrong somewhere with it and I'd like to figure out what before the whole thing goes south. If I decide to sell it, I don't want to sell someone something that isn't working right and could potentially burn out on them. Maybe I've made myself more clear, I was posting from my phone before and I hate doing that.
 
The numbers I gave you are factory numbers, so long as the 4:1 ratio is maintained between DK and PEP. Such as 10w -40w (DK/PEP; 4:1 ratio) on low and 65w-260w (DK/PEP; 4:1 ratio) on high. RMS/average has no evaluation in the alignment process/isn't part of it; so while it may alarm you - it is really nothing more than a red herring.

But if has a NPC/RC mod in it; then look for a wire feeding 13v to the finals and the bias board has the middle post missing, as well as mods near Q54. Those are your tells.That is the only thing I could think of that would cause low power setting to go to full PEP, as sonoma already pointed out first. Check VR14 & 18 for being dirty/defective?
 
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The numbers I gave you are factory numbers, so long as the 4:1 ratio is maintained between DK and PEP. Such as 10w -40w (DK/PEP; 4:1 ratio) on low and 65w-260w (DK/PEP; 4:1 ratio) on high. RMS/average has no evaluation in the alignment process/isn't part of it; so while it may alarm you - it is really nothing more than a red herring.

But if has a NPC/RC mod in it; then look for a wire feeding 13v to the finals and the bias board has the middle post missing, as well as mods near Q54. Those are your tells.That is the only thing I could think of that would cause low power setting to go to full PEP, as sonoma already pointed out first. Check VR14 & 18 for being dirty/defective?
May not have the wire added, i'd check for heat from the AM regulator.

I have read posts from you on another forum, TheRealPorkChop, you understand enough about all of this already, the limiter doesn't need to be removed for this type of "swing" to happen, I don't know the difference in PPE vs. NPC, but the location is usually the same for the diode/resistor combo. You've spotted the modification already.

Do you want output #'s for a modified radio? You have a test bench and a 'scope right?
You should be able to determine how the radio is performing.

I don't get the question, do you want to know the factory rated output, or performance #'s after a modification? If the latter, I cannot oblidge, too many variables to say "It should swang this much".

We both know, clean output and making the needle swing do not always go hand-in-hand; one man's "nasty swing kit" can be another's asymmetry, if enough care is taken during the modification process. The output can be acceptable I.M.O.
I say opinion because I don't have a spectrum analyzer to test my modified Galaxy on, the output looks nice on the 'scope though..

How about returning the radio to stock, and then an alignment... The #'s should be "by the book" then, & no need for "swang number" guessing games; the YouTube Dosy meter presentations are a real spur to this hobby..

BUT, BUT, LOOK he got that much swing out of his.
Yeah, but you didn't see a 'scope anywhere in the video did you??
That's because the same modification information can do two things, depends who holds the info.

Sure the needle can swing more, Jokerman is doing that well... But he doesn't know how to set a trigger setting on his 'scope, he wouldn't know what a clean sine-wave looks like if he had to, to save his life he couldn't point one out.

If he does a diode/resistor modification the needle will swing, but it's trash, garbage.
But, give the same info (basic locations and idea) to a capable Technician and he could make a loud, and relatively clean radio....

The great thing about science, is that if you can replicate your results three times, and others can replicate the results, it's no longer a question of "is it possible", the question becomes, "who is capable".

*I'm not saying the modification is spectrally pure*
It depends on who modified the radio, if the mod was performed "correctly", the signal shouldn't become unacceptable by CB standards, in fact quite the contrary. How many loud stations out there in DX-land "base line the negatives" (I like the way that sounds, lol) or distort the waveform and get over-100%, but no longer with a sine wave. (Over-Modulation)

The PPE helps you get above %100 mod, become "louder" and relatively cleanly; In fact, if the Technician was skilled enough, the output shall remain sinusoidal.
I wouldn't have to hear Jokerman's level of "tech work" on the adjacent channels any longer, if only people stopped watching so many crappy YouTube watt meter presentations.. :D


All the Best
-LeapFrog
 
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Yes, I've been messing with radios for awhile, not exactly a noob. I'll be honest enough to say that I know enough to get myself into trouble, quick. My scope decided it wanted to take a nap, I believe the power supply has taken a massive dump and I'm not crazy about fooling with it, caps are probably the blame. And my digital scope ain't worth a tinkers dern, I call it my pretty toy.

If this radio will produce a 10 watt carrier on the low setting and a 65 watt carrier on the high setting, and from that high carrier with modulation increase to 80 watts... shouldn't it start at a 10 watt carrier on low and swing to 80 watts since it has this super-whack-pack-super-mod-diode smoke and mirrors show installed?

If it will do just that on the peak side, why not on the average side? Why is only the peak numbers going wide open and not the average reading? That's what I want to know. I've fooled with many radios and every single one I've seen and owned myself, will always swing the full PEP and average once someone has done this "super mod" to it. I don't understand why this radio will not increase the average power from a low carrier like it does the peak side. In my mind, if it's keying 10 watts and doing 40 average but doing 250 peak, it has to sound like garbage on the air. The only way to get that average reading up is to turn up the carrier to 65 watts to get 80 out, I don't really want that. I'd rather have a 25 watt key and 100 watts average with a 250 or so pep but it won't do that, nowhere close.

And if I remove this diode/resistor, those stock numbers aren't happening either.

Diode removed, all limiters intact, factory alignment and settings as per the information listed on CB Tricks...

10 watts low - average swing is 20 watts - the peak swing is 250 watts
65 watts high - average swings backwards to about 45 watts - the peak swings to 250 watts.

Something ain't right... with backwards swing it makes me think the carrier is too high. You can turn it down to 40 or so on the high side and then see forward swing but it's not much. But it'll swing the peak side, no matter what you do it'll swing that 250 watts and I have no idea why. Everything looks stock and in place in this radio.
 
Far as the differences go with PPE and NPC, here's what Richard said. It's posted elsewhere on this forum by someone whose name slips my mind. I did buy this radio used from a guy that broadcast locally, I've not done anything to it myself. And personally, I'm not sure of the difference either other than what he states right here :


The npc mod is the most used mod in export radios today. it has been around for yrs, but it is set up wrong and actually labeled wrong (depending on form used) by 90% of the techs using it.

The npc where the limiter is removed and the final/s volted -is- an actual npc. but after reading this i hope you all will see that unless you have the right equipment it is unaceptable for a clean signal (which is the reason for using the npc instead of clipping the limiter). even when set right, a 1w carrier with 35-45w (single or dual final)of swing is not good.

For the npc where the limiter is left intact and and the final/s is not volted, a stock radio set at 100% mod by the factory, needs nothing but the npc components. well, the high power carrier needs reducing to keep the pos peaks from flattopping, but the lower power setting needs nothing but the npc components. this mod is also not truly a npc mod, but a ppe (positive peak expansion) mod. there is no compression of the negative peaks, since the neg peaks still hit 100% mod without the amc being adjusted, but the pos peaks will hit 125-300% pos mod (depending on resistor value used).

The reason is because the amc is only triggered on the neg peaks. the amc is turned off on the post peaks, but it tracks on the positive peaks by an rc circuit.

Here is a galaxy 77hml at 100% mod and a 1.25w carrier as an example....

For a 1.25w carrier the collector of tr51 is at 2.50vdc. the emitter of tr49 is at 2.54vdc. when audio is applied for 100% mod, the collector of tr51 swings from 0-5v (5vp-p). the emitter of tr49 swings from 2.49-2.59v (.1vp-p).keep in mind that the emitter of tr49 only swings .1vp-p as this will be revisited later. the amc samples the neg peaks to keep it at 100% mod.

Now when a 1n914 diode/390ohm res npc (ppe)is used, things begin to change. the banded end of the diode goes to the collector of tr51 and the res goes to the emitter of tr49. the neg peaks still hit the 100% mod i had set the radio for in the last step, but the pos peaks go to about 200%. remember how the voltage on the col of tr51 goes to 0 but the voltage on the emit of tr49 only goes to 2.49v. so when the col of tr51 goes .6v lower than the emit of tr49, the diode is turned on and -tries- to pull the col of 51 back up. but the amc is set to -make- the voltage of the collector of 51 hit 0 (100% neg mod). to do this more audio must be dumped into 49. this is evident by remeasuring the voltages at the emit of 49 with a scope. it was .1vp-p with audio, now it is .2vp-p. since the amc only samples the neg peaks, that same .2vp-p is present on the pos peaks. and since only .1vp-p is needed here, the pos peaks go past 100% (about 200% here). so as you can see, there is no compression of the negative peaks (npc). there -can't- be if the neg mod is hitting 100% before and after the mod without amc being adjusted. but there is positive peak expansion (ppe). this is all done by a way of fooling the limiter/amc. and you can add this to any stock radio and it will work properly as long as it was properly set at the factory for 90-100% mod. you also need to keep the carrier at no more than 3.5w for single final radios and 5w for dual finals for the 390/914 npc(ppe). for a 560/914, 5w carrier for single and 7w carrier for dual finals.

As for the npc where the limiter is removed and finals volted, there -is- neg peak compression since there is no limiter present to react and -force- the neg peaks to 100%. BUT you have to have a scope to set it correctly. and how many of you have that??? you may also have to play with resistor values or mic gain to get it to work properly (once again you still need a scope).you might as well just clip the limiter, since if you don't have the right equipment your in the same shape, but with about 5min-30min (depending on your soldering skill level) more work. also, why volt the finals when with both mods you have to reduce the high power carrier for it to work properly? the reg is being "spared" by reducing the carrier power (which is the reason for "volting" the finals).

Anyone who wishes to post this on other forums has my permission. I'm not doing this to call anyone out or for self recognition, but i'd like to see this get around for techs who don't quite understand what is going on with this/these mods (especially since this is the most popular mod out there). this mod was meant to run clean radios with increased pos mod, so it should be understood how to do it properly. I'm not a "mad scientist" saying it works because I say so. I laid down the facts to prove it.

by
SS8541 Richard Byrd
 
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