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spectrum analyzer for amps ??????

B

BOOTY MONSTER

Guest
this is cut and pasted from a page at http://ampsrus.org/showthread.php?t=276 . apparently its something the col. is using with his new line of amps called "Anaconda" . so im asking you guys here with the big brains.........will or can this make an amp better ? its very much above my head , in fact way above my head . but i know theres a few folks here that can understand it and let us far less electronically educated folks (or a part time idiot like myself) know what or how much difference we can expect in a amp using it vs. one without . anyone know if legal amp companies like Ameritron , QRO , Alpha etc. use this or something similar in building/designing their amps ?

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What is a Spectrum Analyzer?


A RF Spectrum Analyzer is a very special kind of superhetrodyne receiver which receives a chosen range of signals and displays the relative signal strength on a logarithmic display, usually a cathode ray oscilloscope - CRO. In a dedicated Spectrum Analyzer the CRO display is incorporated into the instrument itself.
Presented here is a review of a project presented by the masters themselves, Wes Hayward, W7ZOI, and Terry White, K7TAU. This Spectrum Analyzer project was featured in the magazine QST during August and September, 1998.



The first thing I sincerely recommend you do is buy this excellent reference book through my amazon affliate program. Introduction to Radio Frequency Design - Wes Hayward W7ZOI - highly recommended. Paperback and published by ARRL - delivery 3 to 5 weeks. Wes Hayward probably taught me 30% of what I know in electronics - an even better reason.
Why do I personally highly recommend this book? Wes Hayward is the sharpest designer I know and is highly respected as the "guru" and I don't make strong recommendations lightly. At the low price it is literally among the cheapest investments you will ever make in your electronics education - believe me, even if you are not especially interested in radio frequency design you will learn a lot of basic principles which are universal in electronics. And you will write and thank me for doing us both a favour.
This Spectrum Analyzer project is available as a relatively inexpensive kit and is highly recommended as probably the best piece of test equipment you will ever own. Professional Spectrum Analyzers usually cost tens of thousand of dollars and for good reason. Refurbished second hand units frequently cost $10,000+.
Thanks to the skills of Wes Hayward and Terry White, this Spectrum Analyzer project costs a mere fraction of those prices and sacrifices very little in performance. Basics of a Spectrum Analyzer


As I said earlier a Spectrum Analyzer is simply a specialised superhetrodyne receiver which usually employs a multiple mixing scheme to achieve reception of the higher frequency signals. This Spectrum Analyzer project has an upper frequency limit of 70 Mhz although this can be extended by usng converters. It is a double conversion scheme.
The general idea is to slowly sweep through a range of desired signals, all the while converting them to a much lower frequency where they are individually (within practical limits) converted to a DC level representing a logarithmic or decibel level for display on the cathode ray oscilloscope - CRO. Here meaningful comparisons and information about the signals can be discerned. Indeed a Spectrum Analyzer is a very poweful piece of test equipment.
The Wes Hayward and Terry White Spectrum Analyzer project


The first IF is set at 110 Mhz, the swept first oscillator, 110 - 180 Mhz, utilises a commercial voltage controlled oscillator. The second IF is fixed at 10 Mhz. Quoting in part from Wes Hayward's and Terry White's article: "The RF spectrum analyzer is essentially a swept receiver with a visual display. The display shows the strength of all signals within a user-defined frequency span. Each signal is represented by a line or blip that rises out of a background noise, much like the action of an S meter. Commercial analyzers are calibrated for signal power, with all signals referred to a reference level at the top of the screen. Our analyzer is designed for a basic reference level of –30 dBm, a common value in commercial analyzers."

A very important feature, in my humble opinion, about this article is the general discussion on aspects of receiver design which apply in all instances and, some very sage advice is offered throughout the article, in particular: "We strongly discourage building the entire analyzer before testing specific sections. Such an approach may work for casual kits, but is not suitable when careful control of signal levels is required. That approach also robs you (the builder) of the excitement of the process: the learning that comes from detailed examination."
"Before jumping into the circuit details, we reemphasize that this analyzer although simple is intended for serious measurements."

After double conversion, along with gain equalisation to compensate for losses in the filters and double balanced mixers, this Spectrum Analyzer project has the main gain (as it should be) at the lower IF of 10 Mhz as well as after the logarithmic detection. Extensive filtering is provided throughout the whole Spectrum Analyzer project with both multi-pole resonator filters and a crystal filter. Broad banding techniques are employed in the critical stages of amplifier design ."
 

I've never been in any of the design departments of those manufacturers but I'd be willing to bet that they use spectrum analyzers. Spectrum analyzers are just tools, a very specialized tool, but still a tool. Good tools do make for good products. As for a spectrum analyzer 'kit'? Oh, yeah! I really need one of those! ... uh, sure, what the #3$$ would I use it for? I'm also sure that there will be some who will want one. Good for them, hope they enjoy it! Think I'll pass though.
- 'Doc

And I may be mis-reading that 'kit' thingy. That's okay too...
 
thanks W5LZ . i was more interested in if it makes a difference in a amp someone would buy/use if one was used to tune/set the amp up when it was built , and what those differences might be . basically.......is this smoke and mirrors ? ive personally found the col. to be a stand up guy and feels he is as honest as he can be , but even he admits its over his head . apparently its something to tune the amp when being built and not something used when its sold and being operated . apparently him and fat boy are the only one using one on 11 meter amps .
 
What you can do with an spectrum analiser is in the name itself.

It allowes you to see an selected part of the frequency in one picture, lets say 10 to 1000 mHz
If you put an signal into that S.A. then you can see on te gridlines the frequency of te signal or in digital numbers, the number of dB it is above the noisefloor and so can calculate the strength of that signal.

Lets asume you couple an dirty amp to the S.A. through an attenuater you pick an very small sample of the output signal.

When you key up and oversteer the amp you will notice the harmonics it produces and their relative strength.

By varying the output you can see where the amp gets saturated, and how good the PI filter is.

In that way you can use it to keep te harmonics down, cause less problems in frequencies you are not supposed to be on.

There are lots more masurements you ca use the S.A. for, but this was the intended use me thinks.

Cor
 
Justme has it pretty much correct. As far as what kind of differance one will see when using an amp tuned with a spectrum analyser over one that was not,well the basic differance is purity of signal.An amp can be tuned and biased in a manner to reduce the harmonics and IMD products MUCH better than when going by guess and by gosh using nothing more than a power meter.Basically those that give a damn about their signal quality and care about what kind of crap they spew out over trhe air will want an amp that has been properly tuned and set up with the aid of a spectrum analyser. Those who care about neither and just want to stroke their ego by seeing big numbers on a meter will not bother.All commercial manufacturers of LEGAL amps will have to have had the design and manufacturing process include a spectrum analysis to ensure the amp meets certification specs.
 
BOOTY MONSTER,
Does the average user need a spectrum analyzer to tune an amplifier? While it would certainly be nice, in most cases it would be total 'over-kill'. For amplifiers that require manual tuning, following the manufacturer's directions will work just fine in almost every case. For a 'no-tune' amplifier... no need at all once it's been set up properly.
Lots of "if's" and "but's" in there, but I think you can see where I'm going with it. A spectrum analyzer is sort of a 'design' and 'building' tool. Once past those stages, it can also be used for maintenance (by those who know how to use them).
And since they cost so much, they are usually only used by 'legitimate' manufacturers, builders, etc. That's sort of one of -those- generalized statements, don't expect it to be true in all cases.
- 'Doc


Pssst! If you happen to find two of them, I'll take the other one... you pay shipping.
 
from what i have heard its a class C amp (humm wonder where its coming from)

so its a broadbanded amp
so it amplifies what it sees
so if the radio has spikes as well it still going to see spikes thruout 11mter and at 54 mhz and so on

a tube amp will be even better since you are tuning for that channel
still will amplify the spikes but will narrow the band down

just good rule of thumb
if it amplifies its going to amplify whats going in
 
Just to clarify what I meant in my post above,I was not meaning that the end user be the one with the spectrum analyzer. I meant that the design of the amp be based on the findings of tests done on the prototype using a spectrum analyzer and the initial tests of the amp be done using one to ensure it will perform to spec when manufacturer's tuning procedures are followed after sale.
 
QRN,
Didn't mean to imply that you didn't mean what you said. I wasn't sure where this was 'going' so thought I'd throw in the part about the 'average' user not needing one. Oh well, this day has been going like that for me all week.
- 'Doc
 
thinks guys . seems like the col. really is doing his homework this time when bringing out his amp line .
 
One reason i use the SB-1000 amp for Ham frequencies
Tuned input, tuned output, as well on the input the signal is tuned, and the harmonics, if any, largly reduced before amplifying, same on the output.

Keep the power output to the specs of the P.A. use good tuning practice, and reduce output an 100 or 200 watt below specs, nobody will notice if you use 1200 watt PEP or 1000 watt PEP.
But doing so the PSU is less stressed as well other components and the output signal is lots cleaner.
 
QRN,
Didn't mean to imply that you didn't mean what you said. I wasn't sure where this was 'going' so thought I'd throw in the part about the 'average' user not needing one. Oh well, this day has been going like that for me all week.
- 'Doc

That's cool Doc. When I reread my first post and made my second post I had been up for 34 hours and had a 12 hour nightshift behind me.Even I was not sure what I was trying to say and thought I had better at least try and clarify what I had said.Or at least what I THOUGHT that I had said. (y)
 

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