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20 meters and cb amplifier
- Thread starter AE5RD
- Start date
FWIW
This 'HFM' may be the current 'brown spot on your radio dial', but he's certainly not the only one now, or in the past. Doesn't make any difference which side of the border, there's always been at least one or two on the air. I haven't heard him but that makes little difference, I don't hear a lot that goes on.
What to do about it? Ignore them. That causes them more harm than anything else you could possibly say or do. It's the attention they crave, so, don't give it to them. Awful hard to do at time, but it's the best thing to do. May take some time, but he'll do himself in, no need to help him.
'I.I.I.'ed Jack,
I think you'll find (and you have) that you don't need near the 'drive' that you might think you do with that amplifier. Most 'CB' amplifiers have been optimized for the upper HF bands. It ought'a work okay till you get down into 80 meters, then, don't expect as much out of it as on 20 meters. That's a generalization, so who knows, it may work just great on 80 meters.
Operating practices.
You've already gotten the best advice, listen to what's going on and use that as sort of an example of how to do things. At least with that particular 'group'. If in doubt, use plain old everyday english. It works as well as anything does. 'CB'ers have a sort of bad name on the ham bands, hams have sort of a bad name on the 'CB' bands, so what else is new? "When in Rome..." etc, it works. I have some ham friends that are not exactly 'paragons of ham virtue', same for a few CB friends. If someone doesn't care for them, good for them, I don't care, they're still my friends. They don't have to be yours. If someone makes a humongus deal about it, they might not stay a friend long. Sound fairly normal, doesn't it?
And lastly, if you "ask for it", somebody will give it to you. That's up to you, float your boat in contentment. The only advice I'd give in that reguard is NEVER P.O. a woman! You'll regret it! Besides, she may know how to make cookies!
- 'Doc
This 'HFM' may be the current 'brown spot on your radio dial', but he's certainly not the only one now, or in the past. Doesn't make any difference which side of the border, there's always been at least one or two on the air. I haven't heard him but that makes little difference, I don't hear a lot that goes on.
What to do about it? Ignore them. That causes them more harm than anything else you could possibly say or do. It's the attention they crave, so, don't give it to them. Awful hard to do at time, but it's the best thing to do. May take some time, but he'll do himself in, no need to help him.
'I.I.I.'ed Jack,
I think you'll find (and you have) that you don't need near the 'drive' that you might think you do with that amplifier. Most 'CB' amplifiers have been optimized for the upper HF bands. It ought'a work okay till you get down into 80 meters, then, don't expect as much out of it as on 20 meters. That's a generalization, so who knows, it may work just great on 80 meters.
Operating practices.
You've already gotten the best advice, listen to what's going on and use that as sort of an example of how to do things. At least with that particular 'group'. If in doubt, use plain old everyday english. It works as well as anything does. 'CB'ers have a sort of bad name on the ham bands, hams have sort of a bad name on the 'CB' bands, so what else is new? "When in Rome..." etc, it works. I have some ham friends that are not exactly 'paragons of ham virtue', same for a few CB friends. If someone doesn't care for them, good for them, I don't care, they're still my friends. They don't have to be yours. If someone makes a humongus deal about it, they might not stay a friend long. Sound fairly normal, doesn't it?
And lastly, if you "ask for it", somebody will give it to you. That's up to you, float your boat in contentment. The only advice I'd give in that reguard is NEVER P.O. a woman! You'll regret it! Besides, she may know how to make cookies!
- 'Doc
Guys,guys,take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard for a minute. :roll:
First off, all I was doing was commenting about the whack job 3 eyed jack contacted and was informing him of who he was that is all. The OMG comment was in regards to a newbie waundering into the cesspool on 20m and working one of the bands greatest denizens.I WAS NOT CRITICIZING HIM FOR ANYTHING AT ALL SO DO NOT JUDGE ME AS YOU HAVE ACCUSED ME OF DOING TO OTHERS. As for the other remarks regarding the use of that amp on 20m,well lets say they were correct but improperly stated. That amp has no business on the ham bands because it does not meet spectral requirements.It has NO filtering.Just because it may sound fine on the other end does not mean it is performing as it should.There could be IMD products all over the band or bands.Although you will see the amp produce power out over many ham bands it would take good filtering added to bring it up to spec to be legal for use on the ham bands.One thing you will notice is that trhe lower you go in freq the lower the drive level required for the same power output.That is because the gain increases as you go lower in freq.Please do not even consider driving that amp with anything near what you would on ch 6.First there are overdriven amps and then there are amps used on ch 6. :roll:
First off, all I was doing was commenting about the whack job 3 eyed jack contacted and was informing him of who he was that is all. The OMG comment was in regards to a newbie waundering into the cesspool on 20m and working one of the bands greatest denizens.I WAS NOT CRITICIZING HIM FOR ANYTHING AT ALL SO DO NOT JUDGE ME AS YOU HAVE ACCUSED ME OF DOING TO OTHERS. As for the other remarks regarding the use of that amp on 20m,well lets say they were correct but improperly stated. That amp has no business on the ham bands because it does not meet spectral requirements.It has NO filtering.Just because it may sound fine on the other end does not mean it is performing as it should.There could be IMD products all over the band or bands.Although you will see the amp produce power out over many ham bands it would take good filtering added to bring it up to spec to be legal for use on the ham bands.One thing you will notice is that trhe lower you go in freq the lower the drive level required for the same power output.That is because the gain increases as you go lower in freq.Please do not even consider driving that amp with anything near what you would on ch 6.First there are overdriven amps and then there are amps used on ch 6. :roll:
Re: cb amp
are you using a balun?
if you're feeding the dipole with coax, you can try putting a ferrite bead (31 mix?) on the coax. i am not sure if its best to put one right where the coax feeds the dipole, or where to coax enters your shack. maybe both places.
three eyed jack said:
are you using a balun?
if you're feeding the dipole with coax, you can try putting a ferrite bead (31 mix?) on the coax. i am not sure if its best to put one right where the coax feeds the dipole, or where to coax enters your shack. maybe both places.
cb amp
It's ok. I understand everyone's posts about spectral purity. There has to be some kind of standard. I don't feel like anyone crossed any lines. I just noted the underlying tone when sr385 made his post. That age old saga of Hams against CB'ers. How did it ever get so bad. It's like my two kids fighting. They have fought for years. Each claims the other is at fault and got better treatment etc. It's grown into something sick.
I built a better dipole with aluminm and it performs alot better and has more bandwidth.Not that i'm freebanding
I have a frequency chart in front of my station.
It's ok. I understand everyone's posts about spectral purity. There has to be some kind of standard. I don't feel like anyone crossed any lines. I just noted the underlying tone when sr385 made his post. That age old saga of Hams against CB'ers. How did it ever get so bad. It's like my two kids fighting. They have fought for years. Each claims the other is at fault and got better treatment etc. It's grown into something sick.
I built a better dipole with aluminm and it performs alot better and has more bandwidth.Not that i'm freebanding
I have a frequency chart in front of my station.
Hey 3 eyed jack,one thing I see that has started and is only going to get worse in the future,at least for a while anyway, is that a lot of CB'ers/freebanders that run/ran CB type amps on 11m and had great results with them have now become hams and think they can use the same gear on the ham bands because they had no problems with it on 11m. No disrespect meant,but this is a direct result of lack of knowledge or caring in some cases about TX'ing a clean signal. Often on CB a signal that is wiping out a dozen channels is looked upon as a great and wonderfull signal so powerfull it just stomps on all the others. If that same signal were to appear on the ham bands it would draw the ire of most operators as being what it really is, a wideband crappy signal full of IMD products and all kinds of spurious emmissions.I have heard ham gear taking up 12 KHZ on SSB before as well because the operator was driving the crap out of his legal limit amp with the compressor wide open.It is all about understanding the limits of your equipment and what is technically acceptable to put on the air. That is also the differance between CB'ers and hams.Often the CB'er does not care what the signal sounds like on any other feq then the one he is talking on.I see on qrz.com a lot of questions about how to put these CB amps on the HF bands and they are generally met with disdain.I must say that I agree and understand with the concerns about that happening but I also disagree with the responces most guys give over there with regards to it. I believe it is better to educate the masses of newbies than to eradicate them before they even get started.IMHO the short term future of ham radio/CB radio "wars" is bleak and will only get worse as the so-called "11m hams" look at running Davemades and X-Forces on 10m and beyond and the hams decide to rant and rave and piss and moan instead of educate.
QRN said:
They were probably mad at me for my comments, but I am with you mostly.
I just wanted to be sure the guy understood that 'those' operators there are not considered good operators by any stretch. It wasn't clear if he found them by mistake or sought them out....or if he figured that was a good way to operate etc.
I was just pointing out, pretty bluntly, that that area of 20m is a garbage pit with operators that could die...and nobody would care. It's an unfortunate armpit of ham radio operations, unfortunately fueled by the Canadian govt's lack of caring. The US hams that get involved do get shut down at least, but with fuel remaining on the fire up in VE land...it will continue.
I just wanted to be sure people realized that that isn't what ham radio is all about.
It's funny you should say that 20 meters is the garbage pile of ham. It's where i find the most people talking. I have checked out 80, 40, 15, 10, 160, and haven't heard much at all. Bad conditions? When i do hear someone and they are having a conversation I don't break in because they are using the frequency. So i go to an unused frequency and give my call several times and have yet to get any response. How is it done? On ch 38 lsb you just throw out your call to someone and if they can hear you they come back. Never mind about who is trying to use the frequency. I can hear several. Ham is different. Your not supposed to interupt. So i guess i'm a little lost.
If a NET is in session, it's a round table discussion, and basically they will break from the discussion order and ask for new 'check ins', the do this at the start of a net also. The net control operator generally keeps going down the list in order of check-in or sometimes by region, going one person to the next.
Courtesy with a net is to check in, and wait your turn as it comes around. Also it is strongly encouraged that you understand the topic of the net and only join if you have something to add or ask that is on topic for that particular net discussion.
For general QSOs, whether you get a break or not will depend on the guys talking. It's hard to get a simple discussion going so when you finally do get going, it's frustrating if people are trying to break in.
The way you ask to get in is to simply wait for a pause in the discussion and call your call. If the people hear you and want to ack you, they will generally say 'station calling acknowledged' or go ahead station calling. It is not unusual at all to be ignored if people are involved in a discussion. Think about picking up a busy phone extension and expecting the people on the line to be happy and ready to talk about whatever you have as your topic.
If you want to jump in on a conversation, please have something relevant to the conversation to add.
As far as making DX contacts goes, when you hear a station calling CQ, they will generally say QRZ or 'over'. Call your full call right when they finish and see if they call back. If there are a ton of people trying to reach that station, wait about a full second after they call QRZ before you call so you aren't lost in the bulk of the pile of other people calling.
Tune in people as they make contact with the station get the target station as zeroed as possible and just sit and wait it out as people go through the motions giving the signal reports and move on. When there is a pile up , just know that people won't generally want to have a QSO, just the signal report and move on to the next guy.
80m is the big 'so how's it going' ragchew band. You'll find regional ragchew nets there and people just looking to shoot the breeze. It's most active at night because of the noise on the band during daylight.
One last bit too for anyone new...like me... The band conditions are pretty bad these days, they change drastically. Some days you can get on and swear your don't have an antenna connected.
There are days where you can hear all sorts of one-sided conversations but not make contacts easily at all. If you aren't having much luck and you have checked out your equipment...it just might be the band conditions.
When I first started in 11m years ago, it was in a peak sun cycle. I was able to talk all over the world on 4W, so operating now in the dead low of a sun cycle is very odd and is taking some adjustment.
Courtesy with a net is to check in, and wait your turn as it comes around. Also it is strongly encouraged that you understand the topic of the net and only join if you have something to add or ask that is on topic for that particular net discussion.
For general QSOs, whether you get a break or not will depend on the guys talking. It's hard to get a simple discussion going so when you finally do get going, it's frustrating if people are trying to break in.
The way you ask to get in is to simply wait for a pause in the discussion and call your call. If the people hear you and want to ack you, they will generally say 'station calling acknowledged' or go ahead station calling. It is not unusual at all to be ignored if people are involved in a discussion. Think about picking up a busy phone extension and expecting the people on the line to be happy and ready to talk about whatever you have as your topic.
If you want to jump in on a conversation, please have something relevant to the conversation to add.
As far as making DX contacts goes, when you hear a station calling CQ, they will generally say QRZ or 'over'. Call your full call right when they finish and see if they call back. If there are a ton of people trying to reach that station, wait about a full second after they call QRZ before you call so you aren't lost in the bulk of the pile of other people calling.
Tune in people as they make contact with the station get the target station as zeroed as possible and just sit and wait it out as people go through the motions giving the signal reports and move on. When there is a pile up , just know that people won't generally want to have a QSO, just the signal report and move on to the next guy.
80m is the big 'so how's it going' ragchew band. You'll find regional ragchew nets there and people just looking to shoot the breeze. It's most active at night because of the noise on the band during daylight.
One last bit too for anyone new...like me... The band conditions are pretty bad these days, they change drastically. Some days you can get on and swear your don't have an antenna connected.
There are days where you can hear all sorts of one-sided conversations but not make contacts easily at all. If you aren't having much luck and you have checked out your equipment...it just might be the band conditions.
When I first started in 11m years ago, it was in a peak sun cycle. I was able to talk all over the world on 4W, so operating now in the dead low of a sun cycle is very odd and is taking some adjustment.
three eyed jack said:
If you just "give your call several times", others might think you're just testing and don't want to be disturbed. If you're looking for a contact, have you tried "CQ"?
Typical transmission for 20 meters: CQ CQ CQ 20 CQ CQ CQ 20. THIS IS [YOUR CALL] [YOUR CALL WITH PHONETICS] CALLING CQ AND LISTENING.
No need to say "QRZ?" at this point; you don't know if anyone IS calling you yet. No need to say "over"; if someone is going to answer your CQ, they'll transmit when you stop talking.
'I.I.I.' Jack,
There's only a couple of things I'd add to the above, nothing unusual or special (they probably just didn't think if it...shhhh).
Before calling 'CQ', or another station, on that clear frequency you found, ask if it's busy a couple of times. Especially with propagtion the way it is now, not hearing someone definitely doesn't mean there isn't someone there already.
The other thing is that when trying to join a net or conversation, never use the word 'break'. It has a different and definite meaning on the ham bands, that you have a very important message, or something to say. A double 'break' means an emergency in progress. If you don't have one, don't use it at all. There is only one exception to that convention that I'm aware of. That's when it's used during the passing of message traffic. If you are aware of the format normally used with message traffic, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.
The only other operating styles that I think you should be familiar with deal with speaking to me. Anyone speaking to me needs to speak loudly, distinctly, and slowly. I also expect the normal 'bowing and scraping' and other signs of extreme respect I've become accustomed to... unfortunately, the only true part of that is the first part, my ears are old and need time to process information. They did get them sewn back on on the right sides so I'm still extremely beautiful.
- 'Doc
There's only a couple of things I'd add to the above, nothing unusual or special (they probably just didn't think if it...shhhh).
Before calling 'CQ', or another station, on that clear frequency you found, ask if it's busy a couple of times. Especially with propagtion the way it is now, not hearing someone definitely doesn't mean there isn't someone there already.
The other thing is that when trying to join a net or conversation, never use the word 'break'. It has a different and definite meaning on the ham bands, that you have a very important message, or something to say. A double 'break' means an emergency in progress. If you don't have one, don't use it at all. There is only one exception to that convention that I'm aware of. That's when it's used during the passing of message traffic. If you are aware of the format normally used with message traffic, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.
The only other operating styles that I think you should be familiar with deal with speaking to me. Anyone speaking to me needs to speak loudly, distinctly, and slowly. I also expect the normal 'bowing and scraping' and other signs of extreme respect I've become accustomed to... unfortunately, the only true part of that is the first part, my ears are old and need time to process information. They did get them sewn back on on the right sides so I'm still extremely beautiful.
- 'Doc
ham
I guess it will take some time. Other operators probably need to hear me on the air more often and recognize my call. I for sure need to be more confident. I just don't seem to have any urge to talk about anything in paticular although I can talk about several different topics of interest. After a while there is not too much to say. I get a kick out of guys and their
"very well". My wife always says i'm very quiet unless i'm on the radio and she doesn't know what I could be talking about!!
Since I don't talk to her that much.
I guess it will take some time. Other operators probably need to hear me on the air more often and recognize my call. I for sure need to be more confident. I just don't seem to have any urge to talk about anything in paticular although I can talk about several different topics of interest. After a while there is not too much to say. I get a kick out of guys and their
"very well". My wife always says i'm very quiet unless i'm on the radio and she doesn't know what I could be talking about!!
Since I don't talk to her that much.
If you're checking into nets, then yes, eventually they will recognize your voice and call sign.
But how about just one-on-one QSOs? I don't have the exact figure, but I'd imagine that there are a couple MILLION hams around the world, most of whom if you work them today, you might never hear again. They will be looking for QSOs with the world, not just listening for a familiar voice or call sign.
Where I operate (on CW), there's no voice to give any audible clues. Sometimes I can pick out a familiar-sounding fist and think I know who it is. I'm rarely right.
As you said, I think the problem is one of confidence. I know you can do it - I did it myself about 50 years ago. Called CQ from Las Vegas NV and heard my own call sign being sent back to me by somebody in North Carolina! Took me a while, but eventually we completed my first QSO. He was the same age as I, but he'd been licensed a couple months longer and was an old hand at it. Within a two-week period I had logged over 200 QSOs in 43 states on 15 meter CW, in the Novice band, with a triband ground plane on the roof and 75 watts INput (about 40 watts OUTput, probably). Didn't know from SWR; no ham had an SWR meter. If the antenna loaded, it was good.
Didn't take long to develop confidence.
But how about just one-on-one QSOs? I don't have the exact figure, but I'd imagine that there are a couple MILLION hams around the world, most of whom if you work them today, you might never hear again. They will be looking for QSOs with the world, not just listening for a familiar voice or call sign.
Where I operate (on CW), there's no voice to give any audible clues. Sometimes I can pick out a familiar-sounding fist and think I know who it is. I'm rarely right.
As you said, I think the problem is one of confidence. I know you can do it - I did it myself about 50 years ago. Called CQ from Las Vegas NV and heard my own call sign being sent back to me by somebody in North Carolina! Took me a while, but eventually we completed my first QSO. He was the same age as I, but he'd been licensed a couple months longer and was an old hand at it. Within a two-week period I had logged over 200 QSOs in 43 states on 15 meter CW, in the Novice band, with a triband ground plane on the roof and 75 watts INput (about 40 watts OUTput, probably). Didn't know from SWR; no ham had an SWR meter. If the antenna loaded, it was good.
Didn't take long to develop confidence.