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2970N2 PA board MOSFET replacement with Palomar ERF2030+

Unit 75

"TRAINMAN"
Jul 29, 2014
526
1,018
153
Central Alabama
Has anybody tried replacing the stock IRF520's with the ERF2030+ in the 2970N2 PA section ?? They are advertised to be a direct "drop in replacement" but with more power. Just curious.


Here is the quote: Replaces Finals & Driver Transistors in Cobra, Uniden, All DX Mobile Radios, Galaxy General Stryker, Mirage, Virage, Connex, North Star, RCI, Ranger, etc.
  • New Higher Power Part Replaces Older ERF2030, IRF520, FP13N10 And Others!
 

I don't believe they do either,Robb. I was just stating what was advertised. I'm looking for a more robust MOSFET replacement for the 520, is why I was asking. I just watched a video by "hardrive" and he states they run a lot cooler. He installed them in his 2970N2 and seems to be pleased with the results. This is the second time I have had to replace the ones in my PA board. Sideband seems ok but talking on AM heats the radio up. (Too many key downs???) The radio was turned down to 100W PEP out on ssb and 50w on AM. Not like I had the bias cranked too high. Gate voltage was 3.5v and the radio was not drawing any excessive current. Anyhow, was just looking for feedback if any of the members here had tried the 2030+ units as a substitute. That is what initiated this post.
 
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I had bought some of the 2030+; but never used them yet IIRC. But they are supposed to be a bit hardier than the 520.
But your radio has eight of the MOSFETs; so seeing 200w/peak isn't unreasonable or running them to the hilt. The early 2970DX radios that first came out with the MOSFETs were breaking all of the time. But that was because shops were tuning the radios to do ~240w/peak or more.
I am not a tech. But what I do with the MOSFET radios is peak the TX coils, run the DK down until I see 85%/peak of what the device can handle (30w/ea before they snap), and do the same for the ALC control for SSB mode (85% of peak). They seem to run cool and not break. Or maybe I have just been lucky . . .
 
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Has anybody tried replacing the stock IRF520's with the ERF2030+ in the 2970N2 PA section ?? They are advertised to be a direct "drop in replacement" but with more power. Just curious.
The IRF520's must be cheaper than ERF2030's. The13N10 are cheaper than those.
I just don't understand the why behind it. I would be willing to bet your next paycheck that those parts are not made by "PALOMAR."
They just rebrand a commercial part.. They may or may not impose an actual test on the parts before marking the part. One of the companies I worked for did the same thing with 2N3055 bipolar. A very common switch mode transistor graded by gain.
 
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I don't believe they are re-banded according to what I read. These are not the ERF2030 but the ERF2030PLUS (+) 1100pf Cgs
 
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I've never put the ERF2030+ in an N2/98VHP amp unit, but I have installed them into a Connex 4400 Turbo amp unit which is just half the size. It uses 4 FETs versus 8. I can tell you one thing that is absolutely a fact; they are NOT just a drop in replacement. The ERF2030+ FETs have a much higher gate capacitance, thus a lower input impedance. Just swapping the FETs without changing anything else will net you less power before you get into unacceptable distortion issues. The 4400 Turbo uses 2 turns on the input transformer, so 4:1 impedance radio, I had to add a 3rd turn to make it 9:1 which cleared up most of the distortion (non-linearity) I was getting. The rest was cleared up by tweaking the capacitors across the transformers. I can't remember if I changed anything else or not. The bias should be set by the drain current, not the gate voltage (this applies to all FETs though if you care about class of operation). I set my amp at about 50 to 60mA/FET, so 200 to 240mA total, with no RF input signal. I was able to get 100W PEP in AM with a standard 4:1 peak/carrier ratio, so 25W dead carrier, without any heating issues. The IMD3 was a bit more than I care to emit, so I backed it down to 20W/80W-PEP and it was clean as a whistle with input from my bench signal generator. I think it took about 4.5W-PEP drive to get the 80W-PEP output.

Now, having said this, a matched set of 4, GENERIC branded, IRF520s made 20W/80W-PEP without heating problems, and 15-17.5/60-70W-PEP with my obsessive distortion limitations. The factory, unmatched, IRF520s did 15W/60W-PEP with "ok" distortion levels, but 1 FET ran significantly hotter than the other 3. For my IRF520 experiments 50mA/FET bias gave me my best results with the generic ones that I had. Since the factory set of 4 were unmatched, I'm unsure of how equally the 200mA total was divided between them. Obviously the hot one was getting more than it's fair share.

My conclusion would be, at least for the 4 Mosfet amp, you'd be much better served by sticking in a tightly matched set of name brand (not the random generics that I had) IRF520s, properly setting the bias via drain current, and not overdriving them. Trying to squeeze out every ounce of power seems to be the cause of most of the FET failures, usually combined with distortion from the radio, improper biasing, and unmatched devices, these non-RF FETs don't stand a chance. Truthfully, the extra 10 to 20W-PEP that I get from the 2030+ FETs, doesn't really travel any perceptible distance further than without it. Sure, I can see it on the meter, but it's practically unnoticeable on the receiving person's end. Swapping in a matched set of IRF520s and biasing properly is much simpler than changing to the 2030+ FETs and I wouldn't recommend the 2030+ FETs unless you've got time to dial them in properly and the test equipment to verify their output is clean. You'll be quite frustrated with the experience otherwise.

Since your amp uses 8 FETs with 2 bias controls, you don't need all 8 to perfectly match. Two sets of matched quads is fine since each set of 4 has its own bias control. I'd start around 50mA per FET, so 200mA for each half of the amp, or 400mA in total. You can tweak a little either way to get the least distortion/best linearity without sacrificing power. I would imagine that the 8 FET amp would do 140-180W-PEP, based on my experience with the 4 FET amp. How much distortion you find acceptable is up to you though. I'm usually many db more picky than most hams. Don't take my long-winded post as gospel. I'm not a tech, nor an engineer, and my experience with RF circuitry has been purely from a self-taught, amateur perspective.
Also to note, heat output was very similar between the 520s and 2030+ at the same output power and input current was also very similar for the same output power. The 2030+ doesn't have some magic efficiency over the other non-RF power supply FETs.
Also, garbage in equals garbage out. If the radio is generating distortion, that distortion will be amplified the same amount as the desired signal. I use a Class-A "ultra-linear" driver stage between my bench signal generator and the amplifier under test to generate a very clean drive signal while doing my testing. I can generate up to 10 watts of drive signal from 1.8 to 30MHz and 5 watts up to 50MHz. The amp is then connected to the radio for final testing after it has been verified to work properly under "ideal" conditions. I know, overkill for most people, but I have OCD issues. :confused:

Good luck and 73s.
 
Has anybody tried replacing the stock IRF520's with the ERF2030+ in the 2970N2 PA section ?? They are advertised to be a direct "drop in replacement" but with more power. Just curious.


Here is the quote: Replaces Finals & Driver Transistors in Cobra, Uniden, All DX Mobile Radios, Galaxy General Stryker, Mirage, Virage, Connex, North Star, RCI, Ranger, etc.
  • New Higher Power Part Replaces Older ERF2030, IRF520, FP13N10 And Others!
Do you have a link for the quoted information? I feel the need to ferret about for more informatiuon.
 
I've never put the ERF2030+ in an N2/98VHP amp unit, but I have installed them into a Connex 4400 Turbo amp unit which is just half the size. It uses 4 FETs versus 8. I can tell you one thing that is absolutely a fact; they are NOT just a drop in replacement. The ERF2030+ FETs have a much higher gate capacitance, thus a lower input impedance. Just swapping the FETs without changing anything else will net you less power before you get into unacceptable distortion issues. The 4400 Turbo uses 2 turns on the input transformer, so 4:1 impedance radio, I had to add a 3rd turn to make it 9:1 which cleared up most of the distortion (non-linearity) I was getting. The rest was cleared up by tweaking the capacitors across the transformers. I can't remember if I changed anything else or not. The bias should be set by the drain current, not the gate voltage (this applies to all FETs though if you care about class of operation). I set my amp at about 50 to 60mA/FET, so 200 to 240mA total, with no RF input signal. I was able to get 100W PEP in AM with a standard 4:1 peak/carrier ratio, so 25W dead carrier, without any heating issues. The IMD3 was a bit more than I care to emit, so I backed it down to 20W/80W-PEP and it was clean as a whistle with input from my bench signal generator. I think it took about 4.5W-PEP drive to get the 80W-PEP output.

Now, having said this, a matched set of 4, GENERIC branded, IRF520s made 20W/80W-PEP without heating problems, and 15-17.5/60-70W-PEP with my obsessive distortion limitations. The factory, unmatched, IRF520s did 15W/60W-PEP with "ok" distortion levels, but 1 FET ran significantly hotter than the other 3. For my IRF520 experiments 50mA/FET bias gave me my best results with the generic ones that I had. Since the factory set of 4 were unmatched, I'm unsure of how equally the 200mA total was divided between them. Obviously the hot one was getting more than it's fair share.

My conclusion would be, at least for the 4 Mosfet amp, you'd be much better served by sticking in a tightly matched set of name brand (not the random generics that I had) IRF520s, properly setting the bias via drain current, and not overdriving them. Trying to squeeze out every ounce of power seems to be the cause of most of the FET failures, usually combined with distortion from the radio, improper biasing, and unmatched devices, these non-RF FETs don't stand a chance. Truthfully, the extra 10 to 20W-PEP that I get from the 2030+ FETs, doesn't really travel any perceptible distance further than without it. Sure, I can see it on the meter, but it's practically unnoticeable on the receiving person's end. Swapping in a matched set of IRF520s and biasing properly is much simpler than changing to the 2030+ FETs and I wouldn't recommend the 2030+ FETs unless you've got time to dial them in properly and the test equipment to verify their output is clean. You'll be quite frustrated with the experience otherwise.

Since your amp uses 8 FETs with 2 bias controls, you don't need all 8 to perfectly match. Two sets of matched quads is fine since each set of 4 has its own bias control. I'd start around 50mA per FET, so 200mA for each half of the amp, or 400mA in total. You can tweak a little either way to get the least distortion/best linearity without sacrificing power. I would imagine that the 8 FET amp would do 140-180W-PEP, based on my experience with the 4 FET amp. How much distortion you find acceptable is up to you though. I'm usually many db more picky than most hams. Don't take my long-winded post as gospel. I'm not a tech, nor an engineer, and my experience with RF circuitry has been purely from a self-taught, amateur perspective.
Also to note, heat output was very similar between the 520s and 2030+ at the same output power and input current was also very similar for the same output power. The 2030+ doesn't have some magic efficiency over the other non-RF power supply FETs.
Also, garbage in equals garbage out. If the radio is generating distortion, that distortion will be amplified the same amount as the desired signal. I use a Class-A "ultra-linear" driver stage between my bench signal generator and the amplifier under test to generate a very clean drive signal while doing my testing. I can generate up to 10 watts of drive signal from 1.8 to 30MHz and 5 watts up to 50MHz. The amp is then connected to the radio for final testing after it has been verified to work properly under "ideal" conditions. I know, overkill for most people, but I have OCD issues. :confused:

Good luck and 73s.

OH MY GOD! Not another one! I have those issues too!
 
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Tallman, Just google erf2030+. Most say the same thing including RF parts saying drop in replacement. Mechanical, yes not electrical for sure. I just spent hours of reading on this part until my eyes feel like dropping out of the sockets lol. From what I found, I would be better off using the 13N10FQP part in the radio as a MOSFET replacement.
Thank you all for your input. I really appreciate it. Cheers!
 
Tallman, Just google erf2030+. Most say the same thing including RF parts saying drop in replacement. Mechanical, yes not electrical for sure. I just spent hours of reading on this part until my eyes feel like dropping out of the sockets lol. From what I found, I would be better off using the 13N10FQP part in the radio as a MOSFET replacement.
Thank you all for your input. I really appreciate it. Cheers!
You found the answer on your own and that counts as a plus.
 
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OH MY GOD! Not another one! I have those issues too!

My obsessive tendencies are both a blessing and a curse. While the projects that I label as "finished" are always overkill in the details department, they also seem to take infinitely longer to construct. What most people could do in a weekend usually takes me a month or two worth of weekends. Feature creep tends to really slow down progress on my home-brew projects as well. I've started putting hard limits on design features during the planning stages so that I can stand a chance at actually finishing something. So far, that's not working either. Lol. (n)

...From what I found, I would be better off using the 13N10FQP part in the radio as a MOSFET replacement.
Thank you all for your input. I really appreciate it. Cheers!

I don't have any first hand experience with swapping the 13N10 FETs into these PA units, but I have seen others that have had good success with doing so. They seem to give the same minor power boost while requiring less changes to the surrounding circuitry to get them working optimally versus the 2030+. With any of these three types of FET though, it's important to be reasonable with what you expect to get from them power wise. Also, make sure you buy enough of the FETs that you are able to match 2 sets of 4 before installing them. Just randomly tossing 8 of them into the amp isn't going to give very impressive results. Set the bias current for best linearity while keeping the amp at operating temperature. The bias current will drop as it cools off, and it will rise as the amp heats up. Setting the bias current when the amp is dead cold can cause the FETs to draw excessive bias current once they start to warm up and get hot. That applies regardless of whether you use the IRF520, 13N10, or the 2030+. Also, absolutely set the bias via drain current, not by the gate voltage. This is very important when changing the type of FET since turn-on voltages can vary wildly between types of devices, and even between the same devices, hence why they should be matched as close as is reasonable.

Like I said previously though, I'm pretty obsessive about how my equipment runs, so this is just what I would consider a minimum requirement on my own stuff. As long as you don't overdrive them, your antenna has a low SWR, and most importantly, your radio isn't transmitting loads of distortion (IMD) or out of band emissions, you shouldn't be killing FETs, not even the 520s. If you've had multiple failures from the 520s already, going to a "more robust" FET isn't actually going to solve the problem that is causing the failures, but will only place a stronger bandage on the bleeding wound. Did you match the 520s when you replaced them previously? The matching is important in these amp units due to the way the bias adjustment is designed.

Also, many of these RCI chassis put out quite a significant amount of out of band emissions +/- 15MHz from the carrier with the only modification being the frequency conversion. Usually peaking the cans around the TX mixer cleans up much of it, but some of the lower end radios need mods to the 10.695 oscillator and the VCO to clean them up before the mixer. Having a monotone oscillator signal cuts down on some of the white noise from the RX mixer as well. I couldn't believe how nasty the signals from the two oscillators were in my 4400 Turbo. My 6300FFC4 was quite a lot better in the VCO department, but the carrier oscillator was pretty poor. Here is a shot of a 6300FFC4 at 100W dead carrier. This isn't mine, but mine looked very similar, maybe even a bit worse, with the only mod being the frequency conversion, my 4400 Turbo was much worse stock and it only DKs 20W. While that isn't a lot of power in those spurs, it interferes/mixes with the desired output signal, increases the heat generated in the FETs, and causes reflected power at both the amp output and the radio finals. Plus it bad practice to be transmitting where you shouldn't be transmitting.

Spurious Output.png

73s and Good luck. (y)
 
Well, I decided to open the 2970N2 up and work on it today. The left bank was cooked on the PA board as to my initial post in this thread about changing the 520's to something different. I noticed that someone had installed the IRF520N MOSFETS. Funny that because I tried some out on my other Ranger I owned. I looked in my "520 inventory" and 4 left that had the "N" suffix, (lucky me) so I thought I would use them up . Maybe I will be happy with how the radio performs with the 520N's? If not, I will try the 13N10 swap out, I balanced the bias on both banks, did a few key downs on AM and a couple of whistles and checks on SSB into my dummy load. Everything looked good. (No smoke) lol. I then hooked it up to my antenna and turned on my ICOM receiver with headphones to hear how the audio sounded over the air. The darn thing went off frequency on SSB. Now, I'm very meticulous about being on frequency and this radio was spot on before the 3 alarm fire occurred on the PA board. WTF? Looks like I have to open it up again and check all the alignment adjustments just be sure nothing else is out. AM mode was fine on the counter during the bench test. Don't understand how SSB would go off frequency. I will report back if I find something else that has gone "wonky". 73's



UPDATE. Both USB and LSB were off but I adjusted them back in and all is good now.
Blasphemy....I always enjoy your input and thank you for that. 73's
 
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