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Battle of the ground planes

best all round antenna hands down

  • 55 merlin

    Votes: 1 2.4%
  • colossal 5k

    Votes: 3 7.3%
  • I 10k

    Votes: 11 26.8%
  • mr coily enforcer 64

    Votes: 4 9.8%
  • sp 500

    Votes: 14 34.1%
  • maco V5000

    Votes: 8 19.5%

  • Total voters
    41
it biggest
downfall is power handling capabilities
Why? According to the MFG it will handle 500 watts. Unless you are going to use it on 10 meters with full legal limit then this is not a drawback as I see it. A good antenna, up high, with 500 watts will talk anywhere. Besides you can only run 4 watts legally right.....lol
 
again the sp-500 has my vote.
good ole alumin
high power handling
very good rx/tx
i fail to see how any other antenna listed can beat another .64
no matter how much money it costs
to me the GM looks like a big dummy load.covering so much bandwith.
and ya know a dummyload is a terrible antenna.but theres many here
that had good luck with it. so guess this thinking is wriong..lol..it biggest
downfall is power handling capabilities

You can't call the GM a dummy load anymore than you can call a Log Periodic a dummy load. You don't have to have loss to have a wide bandwidth if different elements of the antenna are tuned to provide overlapping bandwidth. Looking at the GM through an analyzer will display this characteristic. It's not one broad curve, it's multiple resonant points close together.

Power handling is only an issue for as long and people complain in favor of changing a few inches of coax inside the antenna. It has easily held full legal limit from an 8877 in all modes except FM after this mod. The continuous 1500 watt carrier on FM will overheat the orange coax in the choke.

Running lots of power to talk long distance on an omni is the wrong approach anyhow. Not everyone can put up a horizontal beam but just about everyone can hang a dipole on their roof or to a tree.

The truth is under most conditions there is not an omni made that will compete with a simple dipole for long range in this spectrum. That's mostly due to the ground reflections adding to your gain and ERP when the element is parallel to the earth.
 
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Running lots of power to talk long distance on an omni is the wrong approach anyhow. Not everyone can put up a horizontal beam but just about everyone can hang a dipole on their roof or to a tree.

The truth is under most conditions there is not an omni made that will compete with a simple dipole for long range in this spectrum. That's mostly due to the ground reflections adding to your gain and ERP when the element is parallel to the earth.


Agreed. It's a pretty cheap and easy way to add another 5 or 6 dB gain to your signal.
 
Marconi, this is the best I can do for now:

Merlin Experiment Post

Thanks Homer.

I'll check the dimensions against my model. I always thought the Merlin's radial angle looked somewhat wider and closer to 45* degrees, than my Starduster...which has radials set at exactly 17* degrees.

The SD'r patent indicates there was comparison testing on the angle, and 17* degrees was the very best angle within a range form 12* - 25* degrees.
 
Agreed. It's a pretty cheap and easy way to add another 5 or 6 dB gain to your signal.

IMO, if you guys don't get the good results that Shockwave and Captain Kilowatt indicate here, you probably don't have your horizontal 1/2 wave dipole high enough.

IMO, a horizontal yagi dipole needs the benefit of more height than a typical vertical, in order to produce a better maximum low angle lobe, and I think in the CB band...that height is close to a wavelength plus about 16% or 17%.
 
You can't call the GM a dummy load anymore than you can call a Log Periodic a dummy load. You don't have to have loss to have a wide bandwidth if different elements of the antenna are tuned to provide overlapping bandwidth. Looking at the GM through an analyzer will display this characteristic. It's not one broad curve, it's multiple resonant points close together.

Power handling is only an issue for as long and people complain in favor of changing a few inches of coax inside the antenna. It has easily held full legal limit from an 8877 in all modes except FM after this mod. The continuous 1500 watt carrier on FM will overheat the orange coax in the choke.

Running lots of power to talk long distance on an omni is the wrong approach anyhow. Not everyone can put up a horizontal beam but just about everyone can hang a dipole on their roof or to a tree.

The truth is under most conditions there is not an omni made that will compete with a simple dipole for long range in this spectrum. That's mostly due to the ground reflections adding to your gain and ERP when the element is parallel to the earth.

i agree with most of this.when i said dummyload i didnt mean anything by it.
just when i hear things like covering 2-3 mhz wide i think of a dummyload.
which we all know is a terrible antenna. the sirio has a good repso there doing
something right.as for me modding it to handle higher power nah i dont think
id even wanna get into that
 
Good performance can be had as little as 1/2 wave or 16 feet above ground and should still outperform an omni in DX as long as the dipole is broadside to the target area. Going below this height will ruin the horizontal bi directional characteristics and make it work more like an omni.
 
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IMO, if you guys don't get the good results that Shockwave and Captain Kilowatt indicate here, you probably don't have your horizontal 1/2 wave dipole high enough.

IMO, a horizontal yagi dipole needs the benefit of more height than a typical vertical, in order to produce a better maximum low angle lobe, and I think in the CB band...that height is close to a wavelength plus about 16% or 17%.


The CB band is no different than any other band. Height relative to wavelength remains the same.Good low angle radiation can be had with as little as 1/2 wavelength above ground but admittedly even better is a full wavelength. Both heights take advantage of ground reflection gain. Then again two full wavelengths is even better and three is better still etc.

I do have a question, what is the basis for your belief that the best height is 16-17% greater than a full wavelength? I realize that you did say that it was "IMO" so I am wondering what it is in your opinion that this is so and where did you get that figure?


horizontals.jpg
 
The CB band is no different than any other band. Height relative to wavelength remains the same.Good low angle radiation can be had with as little as 1/2 wavelength above ground but admittedly even better is a full wavelength. Both heights take advantage of ground reflection gain. Then again two full wavelengths is even better and three is better still etc.

I do have a question, what is the basis for your belief that the best height is 16-17% greater than a full wavelength? I realize that you did say that it was "IMO" so I am wondering what it is in your opinion that this is so and where did you get that figure?

Well CK, back in the early 70's I think my radio mentor gave me a 20 meter wire dipole, and suggested I experiment with cutting and getting it tuned to the middle of the CB band. He wanted to see if I could get it to work good enough to make a CB contact with him about 30 miles southeast of me to his home.

He told me to string it up as horizontal as I could with the ends going east/west more or less, and said that would be close enough to maybe pick him up just a little Southeast of me a few degrees toward Galveston.

I got it to tune and tried to reach him with no luck. I called him and he asked how high was my dipole. I had strung it between two trees, up about 20' feet. He told me, "...this is you first lesson...so don't forget the idea involved unless one day you figure things out better."

He never explained much of anything he was trying to get over to me in words...he wanted me to figure things out with as little instruction as possible.

I climb the trees and got it up as close to 42' feet as possible. I noticed the tune changed on me a bit, and I re-tuned a little, just to get a better SWR.

I made a call to Sanders and on the first call he came back stronger than I could imagined, based on our prior vertical contacts using my old HyGain CLR2.

He told me, "...now figure out what you think just happened in this situation. and tell me about it in a day or two." A few days later I told him what I thought had improved my ability to make the contact, and he never said another word about that wire antenna...even though I asked him questions all the time.

Sanders was a retired Master Sergent in field communications for 25 years, and he did training all over the Pacific area. IMO such guy's typically have just one speed with everything they do, and that is their speed, and you either accept it or get on down the road. He was my friend for 32 years, N4SEX (SK).

Since that those days I've heard and read other folk's suggesting that 42' feet is likely somewhat of a beneficial height at 11 meters and in particular when using a horizontal dipole. But, I've never really understood why for sure.

When I was able to model, I tested that idea with a center fed vertical dipole, and I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary seeming to happen when I reached 42' feet. But I was still curious, and I wanted to see what happened if I went up 6' feet more. Again...nothing remarkable with my vertical model.

Maybe this would be another discussion to see if there is something in theory that considers what the horizontal models below show, and what I was told many years ago by an old man that never had access to tools such as modeling.

Below I modeled a vertical center fed dipole and using the same dipole set horizontal. Low and behold something unexpected seem to happen with the horizontal model at 42' feet...that didn't seem logical considering the explainable responses from the vertical models. I also added a hand written recap of all the models for easy comparisons.

This is the bases of my thinking CK.

View attachment Dipole's at 42' feet.pdf
 
I climb the trees and got it up as close to 42' feet as possible. I noticed the tune changed on me a bit, and I re-tuned a little, just to get a better SWR.


OK. Now another question. Without any input from your mentor regarding heights why did you try and get it as close to 42 feet as you could? What was your reasoning for picking that height? That's what I am getting at. I saw a difference when going to 60 feet from 40 feet but it had nothing to do with fractions of a wavelength. It was simply that much higher and could "see" further and had a lower angle of radiation. My confusion stems from your first coming to the conclusion that one wavelength plus 16% was optimum based on results but then saying that you chose one wavelength plus 16% as a target height because it (evidently) was the best height. Catch 22 situation unless I missed something. In any event a one time showing is hardly the empiracal data required to make such an assumption especially when even higher would have yielded even better results.

Not trying to push your buttons mind you but rather just trying to understand the thought behind the conclusions.Like I said maybe I missed something. My brain has been on overload the last week or so with dad having two surgeries in less than a week,one of which was an emergency, my work schedule all screwed up and being called back to work early for overtime tomorrow. Throw back to school into the middle of that somewhere and I am lucky I can even form sentences much less understand them. :blink::confused:
 
CK, if you're looking at the recap of the attached models, then you have to ignore the testing I recorded in my notes on 09/08/13. That recap was for another modeling project and was for the 1/4 wave idea we've been discussing too.

BTW, I think there is a model noted on the top report for the 1/4 wave at 60' feet, but I do not see any model on this entire page at 40' feet for either report.

At best, you went straight to the models that I posted as support for the idea, and misread what the captions for each set of reports. I copied my handwritten notes, because I figured few would bother to look anyway and typing them takes more time.

I complain all the time to others on this forum that we can't just ignore the Captions that are clearly noted above each reports...or we might miss the point entirely.

There are no 40' foot or 60' foot models noted for the Dipole project recap that is dated 09/09/13. I thought that I described this modeling project, indicating where I did four models for the vertical CF dipole, and four models for the horizontal CF dipole, at 18', 36', 42', 48' feet.

I should have never presented this idea either. I'll try and limit my future comments to be more in line with current CB BS.
 
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I climb the trees and got it up as close to 42' feet as possible. I noticed the tune changed on me a bit, and I re-tuned a little, just to get a better SWR.

OK. Now another question. Without any input from your mentor regarding heights why did you try and get it as close to 42 feet as you could? What was your reasoning for picking that height? That's what I am getting at. I saw a difference when going to 60 feet from 40 feet but it had nothing to do with fractions of a wavelength. It was simply that much higher and could "see" further and had a lower angle of radiation. My confusion stems from your first coming to the conclusion that one wavelength plus 16% was optimum based on results but then saying that you chose one wavelength plus 16% as a target height because it (evidently) was the best height. Catch 22 situation unless I missed something. In any event a one time showing is hardly the empiracal data required to make such an assumption especially when even higher would have yielded even better results.

Not trying to push your buttons mind you but rather just trying to understand the thought behind the conclusions.Like I said maybe I missed something. My brain has been on overload the last week or so with dad having two surgeries in less than a week,one of which was an emergency, my work schedule all screwed up and being called back to work early for overtime tomorrow. Throw back to school into the middle of that somewhere and I am lucky I can even form sentences much less understand them. :blink::confused:

CK, if you're looking at the recap of the attached models, then you have to ignore the testing I recorded in my notes on 09/08/13. That recap was for another modeling project and was for the 1/4 wave idea we've been discussing too.

BTW, I think there is a model noted on the top report for the 1/4 wave at 60' feet, but I do not see any model on this entire page at 40' feet for either report.

At best, you went straight to the models that I posted as support for the idea, and misread what the captions for each set of reports. I copied my handwritten notes, because I figured few would bother to look anyway and typing them takes more time.

I complain all the time to others on this forum that we can't just ignore the Captions that are clearly noted above each reports...or we might miss the point entirely.

There are no 40' foot or 60' foot models noted for the Dipole project recap that is dated 09/09/13. I thought that I described this modeling project, indicating where I did four models for the vertical CF dipole, and four models for the horizontal CF dipole, at 18', 36', 42', 48' feet.

I should have never presented this idea either. I'll try and limit my future comments to be more in line with current CB BS.




Ummmm...........well...... OK..........whatever :bored: but I would have been happier if you just answered my question that's all. :confused:
 
Ummmm...........well...... OK..........whatever :bored: but I would have been happier if you just answered my question that's all. :confused:

Well CK, I looked back at my post, and didn't see the words I was thinking. I thought all along that I had mentioned that Sanders told me to put the dipole up at 42' feet when I called him. Maybe I even typed those words in my post, but at some point I must have erased them too. I just can't remember how that happened, but with that said, I obviously left some important words out of that sentence.

Now I also realize that I didn't give you the answer you requested, by refraining from considering my mentors advice...but this is the way I remember the event many years ago.

The 42' foot idea was never something that I dreamed up, and you are right again...my doing it successfully the one time is not evidence either. However, when I said it, I would have been holding out hope and intending that maybe someone could duplicate the effort...and tell us if they had any success.

Did you notice how the horizontal dipole model that I made 6' higher than 42' feet model showed less gain than the 42' foot model. I used the math to get the percentage of increase over one wavelength in height. 6'/36' = 17%

After I did this some time back I had the thought that maybe this was also what some others had done that provoked them to make a similar claim about 42' feet being a good height for 11 meters.

Sorry for my miscue again. Does this help explain more better?
 
OK Thanks.....yeah that does answer my question.I have done the same thing before as well, think things out in my head yet fail to type them out only to think that I had. I believe it is part of CRS Syndrome. ;) I did notice the 0.7 dB gain difference however i also saw that the TOA was slightly lower at 48 feet. The likely cause of slightly lower gain is most likely due to more power being delivered to the secondary lobe. It has to come from somewhere. In any event the 0.7 dB and one degree difference would never be noticed in performance.
 
CK, my computer keeps going off line when I try to submit my posts. It happend just a few minutes ago as I responded to your post above. When the thing is restored all of my text is gone.

Do you have any way of capturing my words on your end and posting same, so I don't have to do it all over again?

This is probably what happended to me earlier when I left out my mentor's words to raise my dipole antenna up to 42' feet.

I hope you can help, because this happens all the time with my Comcast connection.
 

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