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Bulldog I have a question

G

GLR

Keeping It Good Natured
Oct 9, 2007
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The other thread has taken a turn so I feel that a new one is necessary to ask this from you.

Please explain to the members of this forum exactly how it is that this new antenna is able to provide a 20% increase in modulation.

Anyone else that can explain how this is possible please feel free as well. I'm really hoping to learn something here that I previously felt was impossible.
 

its because they use "louder" aluminum.

dont these guys know that copper is louder than aluminum? duh.

LC
 
I'm opening the thread for discussion for several reasons. These claims by several antenna makers or their fans about the ability for their antennas to "increase modulation" have been posted on this site and others for years. It has gone on for too long and they need to answer the questions with factual, technical answers if they want to be taken seriously. When challenging these claims, the usual response is something like, "I don't want to argue here, so I'm going to continue the discussion on xyz.com website where people who really want to learn can go without others harassing me." That is another way of saying that you don't know what you're talking about and can't have an intelligent discussion about the matter with others who may challenge your ideas. That is a fail.

Many people build quality products. We all like quality products. Many people build those products without understanding all of the technical reasons behind why their product performs the way it does. That's OK too, and we still like the product. Some people build quality products but make claims about its performance that can't be substantiated. If the product is quality, we can overlook a few misstated "facts". Some people make crappy products with grossly overstated performance claims. Those are the ones that we need to eliminate.

So with that said, I can't allow a claim to stand that an antenna increases modulation by 20% without allowing others to challenge that claim.
 
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Increase of 20% Modulation

Guys, I respect what you are doing. To me it is just an antenna that has no whip, unique, 99% aluminum and does a great job! I cannot speak for Kale. So I would recommend for you to hear his own words. In case you don't know the number 1-817-790-6239. But I can say this, an independent tester had access to equipment, used as part as there profession to measure differences, period.

As for myself when testing antennas they are tuned and used for a month. I will place a video camera at my Cobra 2000 GTL. Will travel away to a spot. Have the videogate rolling and start swapping out antennas. In my collection there is a K40 Trucker, 102" stainless steel whip, Cobra HighGear Fiberglass whip, Predator 10-K with 22" shaft and Predator Freedom a custom 36" shaft no coil antenna with stainless steel whip. So these are different from each other. Now what I found interesting is the differences between an all stainless steel whip and the Freedom antenna. In my opinion once you minus some of the inferior metal like stainless steel and replace it with aluminum your performance increases. So with an all aluminum antenna compared to just stainless steel you would not think it could be a louder antenna. Ok, I have heard people flipping there amps on and jump a db. Some have a decrease in modulation and others the same. So you figure is one antenna presents a db difference there will be no change in modulation. True no difference in the actual modulation but in some cases the better signal appears you to sound louder. That is the difference people are referring too. It is like going from an Antron to a say 4 element beam. With the increase of signal you appear to be louder because of coming in better on the receiver. I think in the end it is all about RX/TX as best as possible so the hobby is more enjoyable.

I have not tested the Predator 30-K Plus against the other antennas yet. On the average I am hearing and getting out better than the other antennas. How much, I do not know yet. You'll have to give me sometime to do the swap out. Some of you guys have a more in depth knowlegdge of the whole antenna theroy. Myself I am learning more and more. My main goal is having the right equipment to be efficient in the "bearfoot" class.
 
Last edited:
Bulldog-Unit777 said:
Guys, I respect what you are doing. To me it is just an antenna that has no whip, unique, 99% aluminum and does a great job! I cannot speak for Kale. So I would recommend for you to hear his own words. In case you don't know the number 1-817-790-6239. But I can say this, an independent tester had access to equipment, used as part as there profession to measure differences, period.

As for myself when testing antennas they are tuned and used for a month. I will place a video camera at my Cobra 2000 GTL. Will travel away to a spot. Have the videogate rolling and start swapping out antennas. In my collection there is a K40 Trucker, 102" stainless steel whip, Cobra HighGear Fiberglass whip, Predator 10-K with 22" shaft and Predator Freedom a custom 36" shaft no coil antenna with stainless steel whip. So these are different from each other. Now what I found interesting is the differences between an all stainless steel whip and the Freedom antenna. In my opinion once you minus some of the inferior metal like stainless steel and replace it with aluminum your performance increases. So with an all aluminum antenna compared to just stainless steel you would not think it could be a louder antenna. Ok, I have heard people flipping there amps on and jump a db. Some have a decrease in modulation and others the same. So you figure is one antenna presents a db difference there will be no change in modulation. True no difference in the actual modulation but in some cases the better signal appears you to sound louder. That is the difference people are referring too. It is like going from an Antron to a say 4 element beam. With the increase of signal you appear to be louder because of coming in better on the receiver. I think in the end it is all about RX/TX as best as possible so the hobby is more enjoyable.

I have not tested the Predator 30-K Plus against the other antennas yet. On the average I am hearing and getting out better than the other antennas. How much, I do not know yet. You'll have to give me sometime to do the swap out. Some of you guys have a more in depth knowlegdge of the whole antenna theroy. Myself I am learning more and more. My main goal is having the right equipment to be efficient in the "bearfoot" class.
Click to expand...


IMO this has everything to do with a receivers AGC circuitry and nothing to do with the transmitting antenna. I can accomplish the exact same thing with no change in signal strength if I turn my AGC to the OFF position. With the AGC off each station I hear is at a different volume level depending on signal strength. It's totally dependent on the individual receiver and completely separate from anything to do with the transmitter end of things.
 
If you're going to argue that the gain of this antenna has increased the signal to the point it sounds louder, let's look at the minimum possible requirements for this to happen. It's common fact that the ear can just barley detect changes in sound levels of about 3 db. When a signal is increased by 3 db, the sound level is usually not increased as much due to receiver AGC. This translates into a minimum gain of 3 db over the unloaded 1/4 wave in order to be perceived as louder.

The 5/8 wave groundplane at over 21 feet would have a difficult time reaching 3 db more then a 1/4 wave placed over a decent ground plane. Again, the claim still doesn't hold water. Molecule, thank you for considering all sides to this debate and allowing it to continue so others can learn. I understand there is a fine line between debate and argument and it sometimes is crossed. The reality is people should know things like the metal used can never make a antenna louder or that no loaded antenna can ever outperform the same wavelength antenna in an unloaded design.
 
I have switched out my 10K to a 102" SS w/ a PB Spring when DX was rolling in last week. The recieving end station(Colorado) on 27.385 LSB mode did notice an increment or like he said "just a needle less" signal loss than when I had the 17" Predator 10K. I did inform him I was going to swap out my 10K to a 102" before hand. But I dont know if he maybe he really noticed it or not.

I'll do some testing myself too along with a video-gate but using the reg. 10K coils and whip and the Famous 102" SS + Pot Belly Spring.

Sorry, Im just giving some input I got from another DX station. Just giving input here guys. I know, theory wise its not possible. Like mentioned, provide the claims. The best Id say is to video it then post it.

Dang wish I videogated the conversation. But I will post a videogate of my findings when Im finished. Like mentioned by Shockwave, the claim doesn't seem to hold water. Maybe 777 can do a videogate of his findings.

Sorry, just my 2¢.Godbless all, Aloha.Jim!!!
 
15minigrass said:
I have switched out my 10K to a 102" SS w/ a PB Spring when DX was rolling in last week. The recieving end station(Colorado) on 27.385 LSB mode did notice an increment or like he said "just a needle less" signal loss than when I had the 17" Predator 10K. I did inform him I was going to swap out my 10K to a 102" before hand. But I dont know if he maybe he really noticed it or not.

I'll do some testing myself too along with a video-gate but using the reg. 10K coils and whip and the Famous 102" SS + Pot Belly Spring.

Sorry, Im just giving some input I got from another DX station. Just giving input here guys. I know, theory wise its not possible. Like mentioned, provide the claims. The best Id say is to video it then post it.

Dang wish I videogated the conversation. But I will post a videogate of my findings when Im finished. Like mentioned by Shockwave, the claim doesn't seem to hold water. Maybe 777 can do a videogate of his findings.

Sorry, just my 2¢.Godbless all, Aloha.Jim!!!
Click to expand...
Good stuff Bra.
 
15minigrass said:
I have switched out my 10K to a 102" SS w/ a PB Spring when DX was rolling in last week. The recieving end station(Colorado) on 27.385 LSB mode did notice an increment or like he said "just a needle less" signal loss than when I had the 17" Predator 10K. I did inform him I was going to swap out my 10K to a 102" before hand. But I dont know if he maybe he really noticed it or not.

I'll do some testing myself too along with a video-gate but using the reg. 10K coils and whip and the Famous 102" SS + Pot Belly Spring.

Sorry, Im just giving some input I got from another DX station. Just giving input here guys. I know, theory wise its not possible. Like mentioned, provide the claims. The best Id say is to video it then post it.

Dang wish I videogated the conversation. But I will post a videogate of my findings when Im finished. Like mentioned by Shockwave, the claim doesn't seem to hold water. Maybe 777 can do a videogate of his findings.

Sorry, just my 2¢.Godbless all, Aloha.Jim!!!
Click to expand...

By the time you swopped out 2 antennas during a skywave contact,the propagation has almost certainly changed,it's nigh on impossible to compare any two antennas via skywave as its a very inconsistent propagation medium.

anyone trying to use skywave for antenna comparisons is going to get a whole load of innacurate "facts".

if you want to be taken seriously on antenna claims a knowledge of a radio receivers circuits and how they affect the audio of incoming signals of varying strength would be advantageous to you,not knowing what agc is doesn't come across well when your singing the praises of an antenna.


As for audio gain from an antenna,thats just nonsense,in the same way mobiles claiming more gain than full size base stations is nonsense,if anything it is nothing more than a measure of the manufacturers complete contempt for the market he is aiming at and their knowledge or lack of it.
 

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