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Channels? M58473P PLL

Ok..getting closer

Ok.. yes pin 14 has nothing connected to it... Its there but I see what you are saying now.. doesnt have any place on the board other then from the pll itself :)
 
MUCH APPRECIATED!!! Sorry for the caps but this is what I was after.. Will give it a try.. Thats what I wanted to know the high and low... so I just need one switch and a resistor? Also was looking into building/buying a EXPANDER 240 are they easy to get? So basically adding/dropping the voltage on 14 will make the channels? on being legal 40 and off going what direction? I am going to try your instructions to a tee.. Being spoonfed is nice when learning, but i am trying to learn what I am doing for future reference too :)
EDIT: when you say isolate, you mean cut the trace so its not connected to anything on the board but what you are describing?

Yeah if pin 14 is connected to any tracks already (which it may not be as it isn't used normally) cut the track so it is no longer connected. If a track passes either side of the pin, cut both sides leaving pin 14 isolated and then use a little jump wire to connect the 2 bits of track back together (leaving the pin 14 isolated!).

Dave
 
Yeah if pin 14 is connected to any tracks already (which it may not be as it isn't used normally) cut the track so it is no longer connected. If a track passes either side of the pin, cut both sides leaving pin 14 isolated and then use a little jump wire to connect the 2 bits of track back together (leaving the pin 14 isolated!).

Dave

Thanks dave, I was hoping you would respond as this seems interesting.. I will no doubt post results back. How many channels will this yield? would it be similar to what the 142 base have?
 
Confusion solved!

I now know where the original confusion over pins 5 and 6 came from!
The Royce had a earlier version that used 2 programmable dividers as part of the PLL, MC14526 and MC14568 the latter one didn't use pins 5 or 6 (N codes /64 and /32 so pulling them both high would have shifted everything up by 96 channels.
So now we know!

Dave
 
well cant be right... does not show tx on meter... I put pin 14 to center of switch then 6 to one and 18 to another.. and the 10k like you mentioned...
 
well cant be right... does not show tx on meter... I put pin 14 to center of switch then 6 to one and 18 to another.. and the 10k like you mentioned...

Which channel did you try it on? It is probable that the radio has gone out of lock. now that I would need the circuit diagram to determine what was the VCO coil. The radio should work normally in one switch position if you have done it right.


Dave
 
just for the hell of it i removed the 10k and it seems to be transmitting (little higher then normal) and 19 is no longer cb 19... when I flip the switches on the cobra up or down I still cant hear.. So I am not sure what frequency this is on.. If I flip from pin 18 to 14 is cb... the other one 14 is ??? but this is WITHOUT the resistor.... I turned it off before switching but why does it go flat with that resistor in place?


Edit: some tinkering (The cobra has 2 switches) the cobra on 14 and the royce on 40, oppsing the cb freq.. its literally bleeding over 7 or 8 of the freeband frequencies on the cobra... like wow i am on all these channels barefoot Lol
 
Last edited:
just for the hell of it i removed the 10k and it seems to be transmitting (little higher then normal) and 19 is no longer cb 19... when I flip the switches on the cobra up or down I still cant hear.. So I am not sure what frequency this is on.. If I flip from pin 18 to 14 is cb... the other one 14 is ??? but this is WITHOUT the resistor.... I turned it off before switching but why does it go flat with that resistor in place?


Edit: some tinkering (The cobra has 2 switches) the cobra on 14 and the royce on 40, oppsing the cb freq.. its literally bleeding over 7 or 8 of the freeband frequencies on the cobra... like wow i am on all these channels barefoot Lol
I suppose I made the fatal mistake of thinking that you had a least a frequency counter! I sounds like you have very little or no test equipment so the best thing is to put it back to normal until you have some. Do you even have a multi meter? At least then you can do some basic checks.

Dave
 
I suppose I made the fatal mistake of thinking that you had a least a frequency counter! I sounds like you have very little or no test equipment so the best thing is to put it back to normal until you have some. Do you even have a multi meter? At least then you can do some basic checks.

Dave

Yes I have a DMM, a dosy watt meter, and stuff for basic electronics, but no freq counter which will be next on my list.. Once its right I should be able to hear it on my cobra which also has the channels in it correct.. the numbers might be off so that would take some guesswork, but still should be able to tune into till I hear myself ect... correct? The guy who showed me how to do the channel mod didnt use a freq counter... Problem is no one does these Royce radios.. no diagram like with most radios,So its kinda experimental anyway..
 
I will pick up a frequency counter today

these are appearently how the cobra is setup
8719 channel chart (148 GTL, etc)

Position 1: sw1 down, sw2 down

NORMAL CHANNELS

Position 2: sw1 up, sw2 down

15=26.815 20=26.885 25=26.925 30=26.985(ch3)
16=26.835 21=26.895 26=26.945 31=26.995(ch3A)
17=26.845 22=26.905 27=26.955 32=27.005(ch4)
18=26.855 23=26.935 28=26.965(ch1)
19=26.865 24=26.915 29=26.975(ch2)

Position 3: sw1 up, sw2 up

1=27.605 6=27.505 10=27.555 14=27.605
2=27.455 7=27.515 11=27.565 16=27.475
3=27.465 8=27.535 12=27.585 20=27.525
4=27.485 9=27.545 13=27.595 23=27.575
5=27.495

Position 4: sw1 down, sw2 up

1=27.605 11=27.725 21=27.855 31=27.955
2=27.615 12=27.745 22=27.865 32=27.965
3=27.625 13=27.755 23=27.895 33=27.975
4=27.645 14=27.765 24=27.875 34=27.985
5=27.655 15=27.775 25=27.885 35=27.995
6=27.665 16=27.795 26=27.905 36=28.005
7=27.675 17=27.805 27=27.915 37=28.015
8=27.695 18=27.815 28=27.925 38=28.025
9=27.705 19=27.825 29=27.935 39=28.035
10=27.715 20=27.845 30=27.945 40=28.045
 
ButtFuzz Has different listing...

Someone said look for buttfuzz page this is what he has listed
M58473P
(Mitsubishi)

P4 1 18 Vdd
P5 2 17 P3
P6 3 16 P2
Fin 4 15 P1
RI 5 14 **
RO 6 13 PD
NC 7 12 **
LD* 8 11 PD
Vss 9 10 FIL

*1=unlocked, 0=locked
**1=¸147, 0=¸203 + N

Obsolete chip with binary inputs and code converter.

Easy modification by changing the loop mixing crystal.
 
these are appearently how the cobra is setup
8719 channel chart (148 GTL, etc)

Position 1: sw1 down, sw2 down

NORMAL CHANNELS

Position 2: sw1 up, sw2 down

15=26.815 20=26.885 25=26.925 30=26.985(ch3)
16=26.835 21=26.895 26=26.945 31=26.995(ch3A)
17=26.845 22=26.905 27=26.955 32=27.005(ch4)
18=26.855 23=26.935 28=26.965(ch1)
19=26.865 24=26.915 29=26.975(ch2)

Position 3: sw1 up, sw2 up

1=27.605 6=27.505 10=27.555 14=27.605
2=27.455 7=27.515 11=27.565 16=27.475
3=27.465 8=27.535 12=27.585 20=27.525
4=27.485 9=27.545 13=27.595 23=27.575
5=27.495

Position 4: sw1 down, sw2 up

1=27.605 11=27.725 21=27.855 31=27.955
2=27.615 12=27.745 22=27.865 32=27.965
3=27.625 13=27.755 23=27.895 33=27.975
4=27.645 14=27.765 24=27.875 34=27.985
5=27.655 15=27.775 25=27.885 35=27.995
6=27.665 16=27.795 26=27.905 36=28.005
7=27.675 17=27.805 27=27.915 37=28.015
8=27.695 18=27.815 28=27.925 38=28.025
9=27.705 19=27.825 29=27.935 39=28.035
10=27.715 20=27.845 30=27.945 40=28.045
These codes mean nothing to your Royce the loop mixing frequency and the N codes are totally different from the 148 using the MB8719.
Let me just say that what ever channels you do get out of the Royce WILL NOT match with those from the 148,142 etc. You may find that that 1 radio has say, 27.605 on ch 16 and the other radio has it on, I dunno, ch 37.

Dave
 
These codes mean nothing to your Royce the loop mixing frequency and the N codes are totally different from the 148 using the MB8719.
Let me just say that what ever channels you do get out of the Royce WILL NOT match with those from the 148,142 etc. You may find that that 1 radio has say, 27.605 on ch 16 and the other radio has it on, I dunno, ch 37.

Dave

I see now your probably not going to help me anymore.. Thats all I am after.. Adding channels, and hoping there will at least be 1 I can find by keying up and going through all the channels on my cobra to at least find a few off the regular 40. So many people say oh you dont have the correct equipment, when they help, it was never a requirement to add the channels (the logic behind it anyway) it is however needed to see what freq the output is... In general I was asking how to add channels to a M58473P PLL, and learn how it is actually done in the process..Thanks for the info though, as I have already learned so much

ADDED: btw.. I believe the royce does have some channels now (Without that resistor) but I think all is correct, except the placement of the resistor as it kills both cb and the freeband frequencies, but switches between cb and "other frequencies" just fine without it.. Another diagram shows LD* 8 which in his key he states

*1=unlocked, 0=locked
**1=¸147, 0=¸203 + N

Obsolete chip with binary inputs and code converter.

Easy modification by changing the loop mixing crystal.

So if you are indeed interested in helping me could you at least explain this? If I get it going and need a freq counter, I'd be willing to get one, just dont want equitment I dont need... as if this cant be modded i would rather spend the money on a radio with matching pll as the base.. In all honesty I am doing this one because there is no diagrams on the net and it hasnt been done, So its for the learning experience on these chips :) I like to reverse engineer things (if you cant tell)
 
Wanted to share info about PLL's

My study Material.. I think LD is why I Couldnt transmit.. Turns out technical error made that transmit on all channels at once... OOppps..


VCC or VDD.
---------- This is the +DC supply voltage which atually provides the
operating power to the chip, and is generally in the range of 4 to 8 Volt's.

GND or VSS.
---------- This is the DC power ground connection for the above.
NOTE:- A chip may be found one or more of its functional pins tied to
either of the above sources. This may be done to enable a specific
function by connecting that function to a logic 1 or 0, or to prevent an
unused function pin from "floating" unconnected to prevent a possible
change in it's logic state.

RI
---- Reference Oscillator Input. This is where the (usually) 10.240 MHz
crysal is connected. Crystal pins are sometimes called "X" by the manufacturer.

RO
---- Reference Oscillator Output. In most chips the crystal is simply
connected across RI and RO because the chip has an inbuilt oscillator circuit
which only requires some external capacitors. However, some chips such as the
PLL02A don't have the built in oscillator; that is why there is no RO pin and
an active transistor oscillator is required externally which connects to RI.

1/2R
------ A built-in divide by two circuit which provides an output of half the
10.240MHz reference oscillator frequency, or 5.12MHz. If used, it normally
connects to a trippler circuit to provide a 15.360MHz signal (5.12MHz * 3)
which can be used for loop mixing with the 16MHz VCO. This mixing provides a
low frequency signal input or downmix to the programmable divider.

RB
---- Buffered Output of the 10.240MHz Reference Oscillator. This signal, if
present, can be used for mixing with the 10.695MHz receiver first IF or mixing
with the 16MHz VCO during TX mode to provide the 455KHz second IF (RX) or the
direct on-channel TX Frequency.

Fin
----- Input to the programmable divider which is coming from the output of
the VCO. Sometimes called "PI"(Programmable Input) or "DI"(Divider Input) by
some manufacturers. This is the actual downmix signal or direct VCO signal in
the faster chip's which will be compared to the reference dividers output in
the Phase Detector. It is the change in the signals frequency which forces the
Phase Detector and VCO to correct until the loop lock's.

DO
---- Phase Detector output. Sometimes called "PO" or "PDout"(Phase Output)
or "EO"(Error Output) by some manufacturers. This is the output which results
from comparing RI and Fin. If the two inputs dont match exactly, this circuit
sends a DC correction output to the loop filter/VCO until the loop corrects
itself and locks up.

LD
---- Lock Detector. Sometimes called "LM"(Lock Monitor) by some
manufacturers. This is a second output of the phase detector which is used
to kill the transmitter (and sometimes the receiver) if the loop is not
locked and operating correctly. Some chips have more than one lock
detector and sometimes you will see LD1 and LD2 on the specifications.
When two lock detectors are used, their normal outputs are usually
opposite logic states. This is a convenient design feature which allows
the manufacturer some flexibility because he can have a choice of
inhibiting circuits ; some work with LOW outputs and some work with HIGH
outputs. Some radio's use both LD pins in their circuits.

MC
---- Misprogram Code Detector. The same idea as the Lock Detector,
this is found in the newer ROM Chip's. If you try to force an illegal
program code on the chip, this pin is activated and will kill the
transmitter, receiver, or in some cases, call up channel 9 or channel 19
instead.

T/R
----- Transmit/Receive switch. This is used to provide the 455KHz
offset for the receiver's second IF stage in dual conversion AM or FM
radio's. Pressing the Mike Button changes the pins logic state to its
opposite state from the RX mode. This shifts the ROM controlling the
programmable divider, and in some chips also shifts the output of the
reference divider from standard 5KHz steps to 2.5KHz steps. The T/R shift
is the reason you will see two different sets of 'N' codes and VCO
frequencies in a radio's service manual or SAMS FOTOFACTS.

NOTE:- Some manufacturers chip specification sheets show a bar (-)
above the pin functions, such as LM, T/R, etc. This bar is a digital logic
symbol which indicates what state ( 1 or 0 ) that pin is when activated.

FS ---- Frequency Select. This is a feature of some chips which
allows them to synthesize frequencies in either 10KHz CB steps, or 5KHz
steps. Remember, some older chips such as the PLL02A were intended for
other uses besides CB, such as VHF marine radio's, Aircraft radio's, etc.,
where the 5KHz channel spacing is common. In addition, this feature often
makes it easier to synthesize SSB frequencies as well as AM and FM
although the feature has not been used much for this. Depending on whether
the Chip has an internal pull-up or pull-down resistor here, it is
generally connected to produce 10KHz spacings in the older chips. The
newer chips having a T/R shift must use the 5KHz spacing when the T/R pin
is also used. IMPORTANT:- You can not use this function to get 5Khz
channel spacings, because the Programmable Divider must also change to
match the spacing.

AI,AO ------- Active Loop Filter Amplifier Input and Output. This
circuit, if present, is used to smooth out the digital waveform coming
from the phase detector, before it is applied to the VCO. This filter is
found in the newer CB-only chips. The older chips Eg(PLL02A) require
external passive filters using capacitors and resistors. In many radio's
you will find that these pins are connected either directly or through a
resistor so that they are placed in series between the phase detector
output pin and the VCO input.

FIL ----- Active Filter. Where using this designation in certain very
old chips when the exact specification sheets are not available but its
known from studying the chips that wiring in the radio that the pins are
in fact part of a loop filter.

T&Q ----- This is a wave shaping circuit found in a few NEC chips
(uPD2810, uPD2814, uPD2816, uPD2824). It adds design flexibility but is
often not even connected. This circuit consists of an input amplifier and
a "flip flop", and its purpose is to change a sine-wave input (T) to a
square wave output (Q) which is more compatible with a digital electronic
circuits.

P0..to..P10 ----------- Program select pins from the channel switch.
(Sometimes called "D" for "DATA" rather than "P" for "PROGRAM".) These
pins control the actual channel selection. They may control selection
through straight binary coding, BCD, or ROM. The sub numbers indicate the
weight or significance of each pin. For example if there were eight
programming pins, P1 to P8, P1 would be in the "least significant bit" and
P8 would be the "Most significant bit". The higher the sub number, the
greater the weight of the pin.

NC ----- No Connection. An unused pin. May actually be disconnected
inside the chip, or simply not be used for that particular radio's PLL
circuit.

* --- Special Remarks when necessary.
 
It's not that I don't want to help you any more, it's just that with out at least a frequency counter to connect to the test points you wont have a clue as to where the radio is going. The reason the other channels are not working could be simply that the VCO or mixer stages don't have the bandwidth to cover the range, then the PLL will go out of lock and stop the transmit. The old mod of just disabling the LD pin is no good as that will just let the radio drift every where in a unlocked state, not a good idea!
If you have a multimeter then you can monitor the voltage on the LD, see whether it goes high or low when everything is working, then when going to the extra channels you can adjust the VCO to get the same result again.

Dave
 

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