• You can now help support WorldwideDX when you shop on Amazon at no additional cost to you! Simply follow this Shop on Amazon link first and a portion of any purchase is sent to WorldwideDX to help with site costs.

Ground Plane Antenna diagram and question

wambulance

Member
Sep 23, 2009
44
0
16
What effect would this arrangement have on a ground plane antenna? Is is making the signal more directional? Accounting for loss? Any thoughts or suggestions for mounting such an antenna on a sloped surface?

Or is it fine?
Thanks in advance to all the experts here that have helped me with so much.
gpantenna.JPG
 

Off hand, I'd say if it were tuned correctly, it ought to work just dandy. Unless that roof happens to be metal, I doubt it it will have much, if any, affect on an omnidirectional antennas directional pattern. If the structure is of typical construction, not a huge amount of metal in it, it -might- shift the over all radiation pattern something in the neighborhood of 6 feet in the direction of the tilt, maybe. You think??
If that roof is metal it will have an affect on how the antenna tunes. I honestly doubt if you'd ever be able to tell the difference unless you replaced the metal roof with a non-metal one.
- 'Doc

(Painting your roof pink is always a solution! That always helps.)
 
Hey thanks W5LZ. Another question if I may;

The mounting pole is metal. Should I lop half of it off and change it out with PVC? Or is the metal affecting it only related to the roof surface?

There is a rain gutter on the edge of that roof by the way. The ground is mostly dirt. The air is mostly nitrogen and oxygen but includes some argon, carbon dioxide, and even xenon!

Thanks in advance!
 
My experience tell me not to put any antenna close to anything even if it looks like the roof is non conductive. A metal roof would surely act like an RF sponge under similar conditions.

I did notice some directional qualities, but it might have just been attenuation to the north direction (opposite side of the roof) instead of actual directional qualities. I saw this with an Astroplane and a Starduster type vertical I built, both on 20' mast leaning up against the eve of my home. The antennas were just too low.

See picture of the AstroPlane about 4' from the roof:Astro Plane leaning against roof & didn't work.JPG

Off hand I was not aware of much effect on the tuning, but I'm sure there was some. Until I got th base of both antennas well away from the roof and at least above the peak at 18' neither antenna performed well to the north, the opposite side of the house in the picture. I could even detect the affects as long as I had the antennas close to the house and raising them up several feet above the peak. The real improvement came when I move both antennas further to the back of the yard away from the house and into the clear and even then the antennas were attenuated to the north if the bottom elements were even with or below my roof peak at 18' high.

I don't know what experience 'Doc has on this subject, but I tested the condition. It did take very close observations though and I did not see a night vs day difference, so if I was wrong, then old 'Doc is probably right that being 2 meters away from you roof probably won't make a bit of difference---it not being made of metal and such.

Maybe you asked the question, because you too experienced something in operations. How say you?
 
Hey Marconi, thanks for the insight.

To reflect; I haven't experienced anything yet. I'm just kind of scoping things out to see where I could put the ground plane. I do have a mast in place that has an old TV antenna at the top. Before I went through the trouble of installing the ground plane on it, I wanted to run it by you guys.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that one wants to be all or nothing with these things; either have them sitting down or raised well above. I read somewhere in endless google searches that you don't want it to be BETWEEN .25 and 1.25 wavelengths. I don't really know if that's true or why it's that way if it is. In any case...

I have an adjacent building on the property as well that has a flat insulated roof. The roof is about 3000 square feet and is perfectly flat, with the exception of a four foot wall around the edge. I could move the antenna there, but of course there are logistical issues with that. But in that case, I'd just make a stand for the antenna to hold it a few feet above the roof. Then again, I have to contend with the 4 foot wall which entails making a raised platform.

Am I think along the right lines here or talking nonsense? Still learning this stuff, but thanks to you guys I'm doing better than when I first came here haha.
 
Wall is wood with some rubberized coating on the inside. Shingles on the outside. The antenna would be about 5 ft away from it... but I have a lot of room to work with and can move the antenna anywhere on that roof, it's just not as high up anywhere else (hard to explain).

edit; let me be clear about something. The part of the roof I want to put it on has a raised platform. If I just sat the antenna on the top of that, the wall would only be about 1ft above the bottom of the antenna. I plan to raise it up though a few feet so that the bottom clears the wall. Don't know if that will make a difference though.
 
Last edited:
There are the 'ideal' things and then thre are the 'practical' things. The 'best' things are the best compromise you can make with both of those 'things'.
The ideal.
The ideal set up would be a perfectly resonant and matched antenna connected to a perfectly lossless and matched feed line connected to a perfect transmitter. With the antenna as high as humanly possible on a non-metal structure that's perfectly transparent to RF. That'd be great wouldn't it? It's also perfectly unlikely to ever happen.
Now for that 'practical' thingy.
Do the best that you can do with what you have available to do that with. Which opens all kinds of possibilities and problems, right? Oh well, that's the way it goes sometimes.
Metal pole versus non-metal pole. It really isn't that important as long as that metal pole doesn't detract much from the antenna's performance. That's controversial, so the best thing I can think of is try it with the metal pole since it's already there. See what the average results are. Other wise you have no basis for comparison.
How high should an antenna be? As high as you can make it until you can't reasonably make it any higher. Lots of 'wiggle' room with that one. Isn't a matter of what's -possible-, but a matter of what you can do without bad consequences. Those consequences include $$$, tearing up the house, the significant other's opinion of the whole thing, neighborhood association, and getting to the point of "How the H@## do I do that?". If that means below roof level, or just at roof level, or slightly above roof level, that ain't bad for a start. You have a basis for comparison later.
The shape and/or type of antenna.
Pick one that has the characteristics that you think will be useful. First that comes to mind is polarization, vertical/horizontal. Next is, where you gonna put the thing, and can you, will it fit? How about 'gain'? Gain ain't all it's cracked up to be, depending on how you have to get it. so not really something to spend a lot of worry on to start with. 'Nuther one'a them basis for comparisons for later thingys. (There are a bunch of those, by the way.)
Same for feed lines, and radios. Just a matter of experinece and preference. They have favorites, you will have favorites and I have favorites. I seriously doubt if any of them are the same. (Naturally, mine are the best! They'll say the same thing, but what do they know.)
I can't think of anything you've brought up yet that can't be 'improved' on, or made 'better' in some way. But all of those 'some ways' are not all that critical, really. I am very willing to bet that whatever you start with, won't be what you will be using as soon as you have the chance to try something different. That's as normal as it gets with radio stuff, and almost anything else I can think of. There will also be some "I wish I hadn't done that" thingys! :) That's normal too. Just remember the mistakes and don't do them too many times again.
Aiming for perfection is good! Achieving it is never gonna happen, something will always sound better later. That's what that 'basis for comparison' is all about.
Those are my "words of wisdom". I figure you'll use them about as much as I did when I first heard them. Oh well, so what. As that song says, "Faster Women, Younger Horses, Spend Money!". ... I think that's how it goes, ain't it?
- 'Doc


(Boil all that mess down and you got bigger, and higher antennas. Sort of.)
;)
 
Wooden wall is not going to affect anything. I'd aim for the center of the roof and put radials out in all directions. Most important thing, though, is EXPERIMENT. And just as important: LEARN from the results. That's what radio is all about.
 
Wow, thanks so much guys. I want to reflect on so much that was said, but really no need to. I need to take this new knowledge and just run with it. I suppose I just wanted some confirmation that I wasn't doing something totally wrong or ineffective before I even started on it.

Some time later I can do a few pictures of that roof for you guys to consider (or drool over haha). I'm in a very fortunate situation where I have access to these things and I want to do it right. Then again, the name of the game as you folks have pointed out is, "experiment". And like W5LZ says, what I end up with is probably not what I've started with.

I appreciate you guys helping me out, and hope you don't mind my silly questions as this project evolves. Thanks again! Oh, and if you guys ever need a tall building to put an antenna on in the Denver area, hit me up :)
 

dxChat
Help Users
  • No one is chatting at the moment.