Hygain Penetrator is a highly touted 5/8 wave antenna.

[Marconi]

I have heard this said many times over the years and I owned a really good old HG CLRII antenna back in the days. What do you know about how and why these old antennas were more or less put into a class all by themselves? Is it design or did they just make things better back then?

Be as specific as you can even if the idea was a CB yarn or whether it was maybe the truth. What made them so good?

 

[bandaid kid]

Some antennas are designed and engineered very well, others are not; even from the same manufacturers. One model may be designed to use a wide band of frequencie with associated lossy effects while others tighter with better signal over a few frequencies. That along with better materials makes the reputation of an antenna.

At least, that's my opinion...

73

 

[Marconi]

I agree completely.

 

[Master Chief]

The Penetrator was a fine antenna. They used good materials and had a solid engineering background.

I think there was a short list of real good antennas though.

With all that being said, I think their respected MARKETING departments had more to do with their popularity than anything else!

For example. The Sigma 5/8 is clearly a better antenna than the Penetrator, yet many believed those adds from the old CB mags and bought the Penetrator anyway! Big MARKETING $$$ means more adds in more magazines as well as getting them to dealers at a price where a decent profit could be made.

(there, that should get them stirred up a bit 8) )

 

[Marconi]

I know this is the old argument of which is better, but I can't really agree or disagree MC, because I never owned either.

My purpose here was to get a discussion started and see if the subject of where the Ground Plane radials are physically placed in an antenna's design makes any difference in the effectivness of the antenna. Since we have all heard much more about the Penetrator being the best in the west for the reasons you state, I choose that one too because it had the GP radials higher up on the antenna and was very much unlike all the others. Somewhere over the years I have heard someone say that the big reason the Penetrator success and effectivness was because HyGain was able to get the ground plane up into the antenna to a point where it would really work and actually have current flowing in the radials, thus acting like a real ground plane.

 

[Master Chief]

I didn't see where it said anything about the ground radial systems in your earlier posts. But I have some insight on that subject.

Hy-gain placed their ground radials about 12" up from the base of the main element. I have always thought this to be a disadvanage of this antenna.

The Avanti's ground radials are approximately 3" BELOW the base of the main element. See my pictures here. This is what I reference when I talk about Avanti's elevated feed system. I believe this gives the Avanti an advantage over the Penetrator.

What other antenna on the market uses an elevated feed? The I-10K! We can agree that this antenna is superior to both the Penetrator and my beloved Sigma 5/8.

We have discussed it before, but before there was an I-10K, there was the Mastadon 5000! The Mastadon was an admitted copy of the Penetrator, but with an upgraded feedpoint. The Penetrator could only handle 1.5KW or so (published data) and the Jay and Steve show wanted more from this design. So an upgraded feedpoint was made. Still, this antenna did not perform as well as desired. So what changed? The matching network was turned horizontal and the base of the antenna was raised ABOVE the ground radials (a few other things were changed too). BAM, now they had an antenna with very low loss in the feedpoint and a main radiator that was not influenced by a near-field matching network.

It's only my opinion, but it seems to have worked for the Avanti and the I-10K. We will test a Penetrator and Avanti against eachother in May. As Shaq would say, "Let the TRUTH be told!"

 

[Marconi]

You are right MC, I did not say anything about the ground radials in my opening post. I didn't want to run everybody off with a technical sounding thread. You know how that is around here. They look and then run away and have nothing to say.

My only interest here is whether having the Ground plane raised up high in the antenna above the feed point as in the HyGain Penetrator 500 and their CLRII was an advantage by improving the current flows in the ground plane itself. I know that you like the Simga 5/8 better and it had the ground plane about 3" below the feeder as you note. We just disagree about what was more popular back in the day of big CB. I too have a preference for the Avanti line also. I believe those guys to be the trendsetters, and geniuses of there day and even still today. But I just never remember near as much talk about the Sigma as there was about the Penetrator. Maybe it was a regional thing.

I am not good at modeling, but from the models of others that design vertical GP, they almost always have the GP at the feed point, and the currents in those GP elements never even comes close to showing the current necessary to sum and equal the current in the radiator, which a well decoupled antenna should do. So I was trying to gently lead into my question here, before everybody ran off. I don't see freecell, anymore. I guess he got tired of the subject, cause he don’t even hang out on his own site either. But maybe there is someone out there that is good enough at modeling that might simply find out if a model GP with the GP elements about 1' high on the radiator like the P-500, that will show an improvement in summed currents than one that is at or near the feed point like the Sigma 5/8.

If you just know the answer already just let me know your argument for the truth and no modeling may be necessary. I just don't want to guess on this when is should be so easy to really find out for sure. Then we could forget about who had the biggest BS budget and who got their message out and who did not. Remember I need to know before May, cause I plan on coming to the desert and creating a problem for you guys with my little ol' Starduster.

 

[Master Chief]

We just disagree about what was more popular back in the day of big CB (snip) I just never remember near as much talk about the Sigma as there was about the Penetrator. Maybe it was a regional thing.

What was popular may or may not of had anything to do with what antenna was better or not. This is why I brought up the marketing aspects. It could also have a lot to do with the distributor and the retailer's. Your comment about regional is a good one as I see WAY more old Sigma's on the roof than the Penetrators (LA and Orange County). As a side note, who built the ".64 wave" for Radio Shack? That thing looked exactly like a Penetrator.

I am not good at modeling, but from the models of others that design vertical GP, they almost always have the GP at the feed point, and the currents in those GP elements never even comes close to showing the current necessary to sum and equal the current in the radiator, which a well decoupled antenna should do. So I was trying to gently lead into my question here, before everybody ran off.

Good GOD man, just ask the question and don't beat around the bush!

I don't see freecell, anymore.

And who says there are no such things as miracles?!

But maybe there is someone out there that is good enough at modeling that might simply find out if a model GP with the GP elements about 1' high on the radiator like the P-500, that will show an improvement in summed currents than one that is at or near the feed point like the Sigma 5/8.

If you just know the answer already just let me know your argument for the truth and no modeling may be necessary.

Since a 5/8 wave antenna does not have a balanced current flow (like we see in a half wave dipole), my guess is that you will never see the "improvement in summed currents" as you seek. It's because of this (for lack of a better word) unbalanced radiator that we get the wave shaping (gain) we do. Hy-gain's elevation of the ground radials probably has more to do with the physical build of the antenna than the electrical. I could be wrong! What if you took the mounting bracket and flipped it upside down so the ground radials were at the BOTTOM of the bracket instead of 12" up? This would require drilling out the three rivits that hole the base insulator in place and making a few modifications, but it's do-able!

Then we could forget about who had the biggest BS budget and who got their message out and who did not. Remember I need to know before May, cause I plan on coming to the desert and creating a problem for you guys with my little ol' Starduster.

You sure love your Starduster! I modified one of those to accept a gray Francis Amazer (CB-50). It worked just as well as the original antenna, but it sure gave us something to talk about. I even had the 5/8 version of the Starduster (center loaded on the radials and the main element). Nothing beat the ground plane though.

I still think marketing has A LOT to do with an antenna's popularity. In the end, you still have to perform, and there is no question that the Penetrator performed!

 

[bushwacker]

Its an all metal antenna -- 5/8 wave so it has a great angle of radiation to begin with but yet still has 90 degree radials which is tuned for a good feedpoint impediance
You know all this already-- you know alot more than I do about antennas--
There is a local in the are a that picked one up off an old cb in the area-- out of all the omnis in town (there are quite a few) his is just awsome-- transmit is great but his recieve is even more unbelieveable-- for example, he can RX low powered mobiles (AM, 10 watts carrier 20 watts swing for example) that are way out in the dense bush 30 miles away (or more its about 60 to 70 km)-- and to make things even more interesting, he has heard a mobile , at the same range, same conditions (dence bush), same output power but the mobile was using a Lil Wil antenna-- it was a big vehicle with lots of counter poise pointed in his direction --- this was a local hunter thats is a serious cb'er-- he wasn't using his own vehicle so he threw the lil wil on-- when he got out as far as he was going to go, he got up on some higher land-- not really high but he stayed away from the valleys (northern Ontario) and tried calling back to town-- sure enough, after the first few calls, this guy with the Penetrator heard him and was able to QSO
It may not be so incredable in some area-- but up here the terrain is rough-- hils, valleys, mountains, lots of rock cuts and real dense bush
The guy with that antenna has the best TX and especially RX in the area-- there are others that can do the same range but with alot more power and they can't hear as good as him
Strange part is-- this guy is also plagued by really bad interference-- he live very close to where 2 high voltage lines cross-- he is bettween them-- and if thats not bad enough he live about 500 feet from a pulp and paper mill-- everyone in his area gets real bad QRM
Reardless his RX is still incredable-- he doesn't use a DSP or even headphones-- RX's through all the hash and trash in the area and still has the best RX
Its unreal-- he did have to change the coil in the antenna after burning it out -- left his radio turned on with the VOX on and had the radio set at high carrier-- the radio in the backgroundd kept the vox keyed and the coil burnt
Its one of the best antennas in the area-- I would love to get one-- closest thing I can find is that Wolf 64 wave-- might try one out this spring

 

[Marconi]

MC are you talking about the M800 Starduster. How can those eye candy things be loads. At best they are maybe a static arrestor, which I also doubt. But I have never seen a load that looked like that. Did you also say 5/8 wave loaded. That may be BS also. They make about as much sense to me as those ground plane things at the truck stops. If that is a load, maybe I should bring me a bunch of aluminum foil along when I whip up on you boys out there in the desert with my little Starduster.

Nice anecdote Bushwacker. I'm afraid them boys out there in the desert are going to gang up on me and my little Starduster. All they have to do is not let me get some height equal to their height and the game is just even steven maybe. Bushwacker don't you think that I should be able to get the tip of my Starduster, which is only 9' tall my feed point, up as high as them 24'-30' footers that them boys are all going to be throwing at me and my little ol's SD'r? I need you vote to let me get some height at the games. But, I know it ain't gonna happen, because them boys are all scared, don't you see?

I am still waiting for you or someone that can model to try and answer my question about the raised ground plane in the Penetrator. How is that for not beaten around the bush MC, are you planning to help me out here or not. I know that 'Doc can do it, but I think he is still recooperating from his accident or he just doesn't have the energy. What happened to the other guy, no name comes to mind, that used to get in here and mix it up when the discussions got hot and heavy? How about Eddie (Wolf), Coily, QRN, Jay, some others out there.

 

[Master Chief]

I'm afraid them boys out there in the desert are going to gang up on me and my little Starduster. All they have to do is not let me get some height equal to their height and the game is just even steven maybe.

Hey now, we are going to let everyone use the SAME set-up for their tests. The top of the tower will be 40'. That can't be helped! If your antenna is only 9' tall, than your tip will be at 49'. Taking a 5/8 wave antenna down to 27 feet so the tip will be at the same height as yours is not an even steven test.

As far as modeling the Penetrator, I wish! Dipoles, yagis, and simple antennas are not a problem. So, no help from me on this one!

 

[bob85]

i had one of the stardusters with the loop and maybe it had small coils in the legs not sure,it was known as a starduster mk2 locally and an old friend is still using it after 20+ years, it worked ok especially with close stations out to a mile or so
but neither that nor the fullsize one worked as well as the 5/8 and up antennas, i would be confused and amazed if the starduster came even close to the avanti over longer distance say 50+ miles out, how do you determine when the m400 is mounted at the same height? do you go by the antenna base or the tips of radiators been the same, good luck marconi, i always like to see the underdog beat the bigboys it keeps them on their toes

 

[Marconi]

Well guys, I'm just trying to have a little fun with this challenge thing. I guess I was wrong, these old boys are just too serious about what is best and I guess we should just listen in. If I am there I will have my SD'r because I have confidence in what I can do with it.

Thanks for your support Bob.

 

[CDX-007]

Penedusters, Startraters and the Desert...

Hey what ever happened to the desert test? Was that the one no one was able to make?

And I know this is an old posting, but 1976 is even older and that's when I was a Sophomore trying to get the best performance I could from an antenna.
I was quite competitive back then, football, wrestling, bike racing, water polo, ...Cb radio.

I really wanted to feed my big 16 year old ego and have the king-sh!t station, so I bought and tested every ground plane antenna available, plus the Big Stick, Astroplane, Starduster and Magnum44(POS!) I decided I would keep the best performer and sell the rest.

For testing, I used several locals, one in Woodland, Ca who had a Moonraker and was about 30 miles away, and another in the mountains about 45 miles away above Nevada City, along with one other near Angel's Camp which was about 75 miles from me, all of whom I picked because, like me, they used Johnson Messenger 223 radios which have both an AGC circuit and a meter like a piece of test equipment, and the needle on that radio is like 2-hair-widths, bright dayglo orange and easy to read because of the bright white meter background.
I still own 7 of those rigs.

My test results showed the Sigma5/8 to be 1/2 needle width down from the Penetrator on TX, and 1/2 needle up on RX.

I attribute the slightly extra RX on the Sigma to the lack of top-hat radials, thus allowing it to be about 10" taller, providing slightly more vertical capture area. I believe the elevated radials provided the slightly higher TX on the P500.

- Talk about indecisive, for two months I couldn't make up my mind which I wanted to keep. Remember, I was a Sophomore in High School and 2 months back then was like two years is now to my 50 year old ass!

I ended up keeping the Penetrator (which I still have, cleaned and re-installed yesterday!) because I like the radial build quality better. It always seemed like they (Avanti) took the cheap way out with those little 3' pieces of solid rod at the end of the radials for birds to bend.
I also cracked the aluminum hub which holds the radials, even though I THOUGHT I was being careful not to over-tighten. (...Wrestling, football?)

I did, however, prefer (and almost keep) the Sigma radiator because it seemed like it was heavier and more stout than the lighter Penetrator radiator, but I couldn't successfully interchange them due to the different lengths & sizes, the Penetrator top hat piece not fitting, etc...

So, years ago I read (where it was I do not remember) that Hygain designed the elevated radials to split the current in order to attain a lower take-off angle of radiation, and add horizontal components. I believe this and have noticed better horizontal receive, on stations running horizontal, with the P500 than with any other 5/8 I've played with over the decades, except the Taylor Grandslammer GLR-4 ( I sure wish I would've kept that one, talk about rare!) which also had elevated radials.

OK, so, do I get the long post of the year award? Sorry about the 'book'!

73

 

[bob85]

007 those boys in the desert dont do anything very quickly
do you have any pics of the taylor antenna?