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ic718 swings backwards

longhaireddwb

W9WDX Amateur Radio Club Member
Oct 8, 2008
555
30
38
Colorado Springs, CO
I have a buddy that recently bought an in-line meter for his station. He's not a ham but keeps telling me hes working on it. Yeah Right. Anyway, He had a question for me tonight. He says that on his IC718, when on AM it is showing a backwards swing on his power meter set on AVG and that his power supply is showing a drop in amps when this happens too. But when he sets his meter to pep it shows a forward swing.

I didn't know what to tell him so I thought I'd put this out to all the gurus here on the forum to see about an answer.

So why is this happening and how does he go about fixing it?

Now, I talk to him with my cobra 25 (you can see it in the picture below. Little gold radio under the 2meter) and him being on his Icom718 and it sounds fine. I see a strong signal but not much on the swing. Just a very strong signal. Plus his audio sounds fine not like hes over-driving it. I thought I'd throw this info in to see if it helps.
 
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Ask him if someone had their hands in the radio before he got it - lol.

Or perhaps someone did the PA mod to it to squeeze another 30w out of it. Turned up the AMC too. Probably. Other than that, I have no clue. Typical CB hacks on a Ham radio that don't work.
 
I would say first off....Where is his carrier level set at?...
I am guessing more than 15 or 20 watts
And does a 718 have a prostrasher? if so to much mic gain or compression....
Not giving the PA deck any room to work properly
my .02 worth
All the Best
Gary
 
ICOM radios have never been known for their AM performance. My 706 and an old 720a I have had never sounded good on AM so I never use that mode. I would try backing the RF down and see which way it swings.
 
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I think some of the newer rigs exhibit this. I thought this had to do with controlled carrier or something like that. I know my IC-7000 responds differently on AM than my 706 did. The 706 had a very nice forward swing with pretty good modulation, basically close to the spec of 80-90%. Nothing blasting you off your seat but worked well. A local guy I talked to without giving him the details of the radio said it sounded great and was all modulation, he said it was moving his meter very nicely with modulation. The 7000 kind of exhibits the "backward" swing that you are talking about but I've never had a conversation AM, so I have nothing to report there.
 
I know he don't use the possessor because it did sound like crap so I made him turn it off.
As far as a PA mod, I'm not sure what that is and he did get it used so not sure about that one.

I talked to him this morning and he said his carrier is 30watts. I told him that he might want to turn it down some and see if it helps.

The power supply he uses is a pyramid ps21. He's seeing 12amps on his meter on his amp when he keys up when he starts talking the meter drops down to 8-9amps but then slowly goes back up to the 12amps while hes talking.

This is what he said to me this morning on the way to work. Now with this info I think it might be the radio controlling his audio output (ALC).

Whats your opinion?
 
The biggest mistake I see most guys make when running an HF rig on AM is setting their carrier too high. Most of these rigs will run best with about 15-20 watts carrier. You won't see a big "swing" on a meter. Anything higher than 15-20 watts, or too much modulation, or both, will result in a backward swing. I have found that the stock compressor on the 718 is too much for AM, even while compensating by dropping the mic gain.

I've said it before... keep a Galaxy/Magnum/Stryker rig on hand when you want to be all "loud and proud" on AM, and let your HF rig do what it does best... SSB!

73,
RT307
 
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Ask your friend how much ALC indication he's seeing when he talks. (Press the meter function select button until it displays ALC.)

The manual recommends setting the radio so that the ALC indication remains within the ALC zone (which will be indicated on the display). This is typically ok for SSB operation. For AM though, I would expect that under ideal conditions you would never see any ALC indication at all.

The ALC should be set not to let the radio exceed 100 watts at any time. In SSB mode, that means a voice peak can never push the transmitter beyond 100 watts -- if you try, the ALC circuit will kick in and throttle the drive level back to keep you in range. You want the mic gain set so that you modulate up to 100 watts without going over. Switching on the processor should also help you improve your average power too (while still not going over 100 watts).

For AM though, the rule is still that if you want 100% modulation, you need to set your carrier to one quarter of your PEP. So since the radio isn't designed to exceed 100 watts PEP, your carrier should be at 25 watts. If you increase the carrier beyond this, then the ALC will kick in on voice peaks and throttle back the drive again. And once it kicks in, it may take a short while to unclench -- how long depends on the circuit design.

This behavior is a little different from the typical 11 meter case where the carrier is set to high: in that case, you just run out of headroom for positive modulation. The difference is that in this case, you don't just hit the ceiling: you bounce off it and are pushed down, and then you slowly climb back up, due to the time constant in the ALC circuit.

With my rig (Kenwood TS-950SDX), max PEP is 150 watts. I can set the carrier at about 35 watts or so, and at that point I can still see 100% modulation on the scope with little to no ALC action. Be aware however that I'm also using compression in my audio chain to keep the audio clamped so that it never goes over a certain level no matter how loud I talk or how much I climb up onto the mic. That allows me to maintain 100% modulation without going over. It's the "without going over" part that's important here.

Note: the compressor feature built into the radio is not the same thing. This is usually for use on SSB modes only. On some rigs it has no effect on AM too.

From what I've read some radios may simply have much less forgiving ALC circuits. It may also be the case that some radios have the peak point set a little low (i.e. instead of set right at 100 watts, the limit is actually a little lower). This can make it harder to follow the "25 watt carrier" rule: even if you try to do things that way, the ALC may still kick in. I'm basing what I know on the Kenwood rigs that I have, and they seem to behave fairly consistently, but I haven't operated many other HF rigs in AM, so your mileage may vary.

Also, even if the ALC circuit isn't too fascist and you obey the "25 watt carrier" rule, if you have an amplified mic on the rig (like, say, a D-104) and the gain set too high, you can overmodulate and that too will cause the ALC circuit to kick in.

The current values your friend provided are a bit telling though. You said he's getting 12 amps when he first keys up. If we assume his power supply is set right at 13.8 volts, that works out to 165.6 watts of DC input power. Now if we're really pessimistic and assume only 50% transmitter efficiency, then his RF output power will be half of that, but that works out to 82.8 watts. That sounds like more than 30 watts RF carrier to me.

So my suspicion is that he just has the carrier set too high, and the ALC circuit in the radio is throttling him back.

In general, what I recommend that he try is:

1) Start with the mic gain and carrier control all the way down
2) Key the rig up and use the carrier control to set the dead key to 25 watts -- no more.
3) Set the meter on the rig to show ALC
4) Talk into the mic and gradually increase the gain until you just start to see some activity on the ALC meter
5) Check the output power level on the radio -- it should hit 100 watts on a voice peak
6) Check the current meter on the power supply and see how much it reads both on a dead key and with modulation

If I understand the math right, using just a sine wave for testing, your average power at 100% modulation (assuming a 25 watt carrier and 100 watt PEP) would be about 70 watts. Speech is a more complex waveform so don't expect to see exactly that number when you're talking.

As I said before, without any audio compression, it's difficult to get that "100% modulation without going over" behavior. Trying to manage the audio level manually means keeping your voice level constant and staying the same distance from the mic. It's hard to do that -- if you start talking louder or get closer to the mic, the you'll likely find yourself overmodulating and you'll see more ALC activity. Visualizing this without a scope to monitor your output is also very hard.

Lastly, in the interest of full disclosure, some some really troublesome radios, people have been known to try defeating the ALC by connecting a battery to the ALC input on the back of the radio. This is provided for feeding back the ALC voltage from an external amplifier. This can allow you to overcome an overly aggressive ALC circuit. However, keep in mind that the ALC circuit is intended to keep the transmitter operating within its design limits, so you should still try to keep the output at 100 watts. Driving it too hard can reduce the lifetime of the unit, and result in distorted output.

-Bill
 
the ic 718 has an out put of 40 watts am according to the icom web site.
i had a i com 706mkllg that would get great am reports on am . even the tech who converted it tested it at his shop and he was surprised on the good reports coming back on how it sounded . mine was a lil hot it was putting out 150 w ssb right out the box, so i had to test it on am , i to got the back ward swing so i reduce the carrier output and it went even more back wards . so i played with it at different dead keys , and what i found after time and error is it will swing forward, i set it at the 40 watts dead key and then started to talk , wow 150 w pep. it seems that it liked the dead key to be set at max of the rated wattage which was 40 watts am. so that is where i left it and it would swing forward but every time i tried to lowered the dead key it would swing backwards. so try it at the 40w dead key and tell us what you get . just my findings with the 706mkllg .
 
Adjusting the dead key isn't always straight forward with these kind of rigs I don't think.

Typical hoop jumping for menu driven rigs these days. This is from memory, but should be pretty close. (y)

Hit the "set" button, scroll through the menu with the "up" and "down" arrow buttons, scroll to "RF Power", and adjust the VFO to the left for low power, to the right for higher power. It will go from about 1 watt up to about 100 depending on the rig's initial tune from the factory.

73,
RT307
 
Typical hoop jumping for menu driven rigs these days. This is from memory, but should be pretty close. (y)

Hit the "set" button, scroll through the menu with the "up" and "down" arrow buttons, scroll to "RF Power", and adjust the VFO to the left for low power, to the right for higher power. It will go from about 1 watt up to about 100 depending on the rig's initial tune from the factory.

73,
RT307

Yes, adjusting the overall power can be done that way, but not the dead key. If you lower RF power, you peak drops as well.
 
Yes, adjusting the overall power can be done that way, but not the dead key. If you lower RF power, you peak drops as well.

True. Perhaps I misunderstood your post. But again, if you're looking for low dead key and high swing, these HF rigs are not good for that. And then see the last statement from my first post. :D

73,
RT307
 

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