M-104C to M-106C

[Turbo6]

I am looking for some more gain on horizonal. I use a Maco M-104C now and I'm looking at the M-106C for an upgrade. Does anyone have experience changing from one of these to the other? It seems to me a boom almost 2x the length would really help gain.

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

Even Maco's inflated gain figures show only a 3dB gain over the 4 element.That would make one half an S-unit differance,something you or nobody else will notice.You MAY notice better front/back and front/side rejection and you WILL notice every wind and ice storm that comes along.

 

[960]

QRN is correct. I have noticed that once you go past 4-5 elements the gains are very small (point of diminishing return), and you gain a tighter rejection for the most part.

If this was my personal situation I would:

I would either put the M104C up higher (if you can), yagi designs are very dependant on their height above ground.

or

get change out the M104C to a 4 element true horizontal polarized Quad.

This would be the same or a little less boom size, but higher performance (about 2db more gain) and rejection and hold DX longer and better.

 

[Turbo6]

QRN is correct. I have noticed that once you go past 4-5 elements the gains are very small (point of diminishing return), and you gain a tighter rejection for the most part.

If this was my personal situation I would:

I would either put the M104C up higher (if you can), yagi designs are very dependant on their height above ground.

or

get change out the M104C to a 4 element true horizontal polarized Quad.

This would be the same or a little less boom size, but higher performance (about 2db more gain) and rejection and hold DX longer and better.

I have it on a tower 85' to the boom and an I10K 8 feet above that so its pretty high up. I love my ground plane and thats keeping me from doing a full quad. Dont get me wrong it talks REALLY well because I am doing about 2kw bird through it but I'm like everyone else just looking for a little more!

 

[960]

I see, your faced with a tough situation. You already very high in the air, and your already running very high power.

Even going to a M108c will bring you 4db more gain which is not going to be worth the hassle of that long beam and now your super tight comapred to the m104c.

Even if you increaed your power to say.. 8-10KW Bird, this would be the jump in output you would like, but this is very expensive and most likely not practical for yourself, and you will probably need to change the coax out to higher grade heliax and LC connectors, unless your running that right now.

The other thing is if you change everything out to just the Quad on top (say 4-6 elements), and ran both seperate H/V this will be the improvements you would like and your quad will definitely get out much better than the I-10K grounplane and Maco setup you have now and be imprevious to noise like the antennas your using now. You can mount the I-10K someplace else just for 360 degree listening and general conversation, and then switch to the quad beam to pound, either for DX or local keydown on your home channels.

Just some ideas to throw around...

Good Luck! You already have a killer setup as it is...

 

[DXman]

Turbo6,
Answer to your question; "will going to a 106 help the gain over the 104"...Yes it will!
I take from the power that you are running that you mostly talk AM, for you certainly don't need that much to run on sideband.

I would take a 105 or 106 anyday over a 104, your receive will really pickup when going to a 5 or 6 element.
If your just wanting to make local contacts with in North America then I wouldn't waste the time in changing to a 5 or 6 element. But for outside North Amercia then the 5 or 6 will really improve your chances for then really hard dx contacts.

It would really amaze you, if I was to tell you of some of the contacts that I have made on this planet using just a 25 watt radio on 11 meters and a 5 element yagi.

Bigger antenna, then less power you will need, at least that's the way it has always worked for me.

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

The differance in gain WILL MAKE ONLY A MINUTE DIFFERANCE that will not be seen. You cannot make comparisions on DX because the propagation changes ALL the time.The only way would be to have BOTH antennas up and a switch box for instant comparisions.There is NO way a 5 or even a 6 element will make any kind of appreciable differance over a 4 element.Either that or all the RF engineers and the laws of physics are wrong.

 

[DXman]

There is NO way a 5 or even a 6 element will make any kind of appreciable differance over a 4 element.

Yes they will.

 

[960]

No they wont. I did this test before to local stations and saw very minute differences. Going from a A99 to a 6 element M106C is a absolute huge jump, but dont expect that when your already comparing a 4 to a 6 beam.

Figure your output as a round circle ballon. An omni directional antenna is going out in 360 degree pattern. You have so much "air" or in our terms "watts" in that ballon (coming from the station). The beam is "squishing" the ballon, more or less, which is directing more of the energy to a certain direction. When your already at 4 elements, its is "squished" pretty good. When you go to 6 elements, it is a little more, but Nothing like comparing a 2 element to a 6 element, or an Omni to a 4 element. Thus the major gains are when you go from a Omni or a 2 element or such to a 4-5 element. Everything else (6,7,8+) is very minute in gain.

Here is some examples:

Here is a 2 element quad from SE

Here is a 4 element lightning + from SE

and here is the 6 element from SE

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

Over the years I have run a 5/8 wave ground plane,a Big Stick,a 3 element horizontal yagi,a 5 element horizontal yagi, a Wilson Shooting Star,and a dozen and a half various amateur band antennas.There was no noticable differance between the 5/8 wave and the Big Stick.There was also no real big differance between the 3 element and the 5 element,F/B was better on the 5 element but the gain differance was neglegable.Alsothe gain differance between the 5 element and the Shooting Star was almost nill.A lot of people get confused when they turn a larger beam around and see a much larger differance from the front to the back than they see with a smaller beam.This is not due to higher gain but a combination of slightly higher forward gain and much better rejection off the back. Do not confuse this with much better forward gain.

 

[DXman]

Well, it appears that you guys have some strong feeling about this, so I won't go into any further.

My experience came from real testing some 30 yrs ago when there was a lot of beam antennas here in the valley. The 6 element beams always out done any body with the Moonraker 4's and 5 element yagi's. It didn't matter if it was local or on dx.

So I guess all you guys out there that are running 5,6 & 7 element beams had better sell them and go back to 4 element.... :roll: :roll:

Turbo6,
Maybe you could go back to a 3 element, for the 4 would only have slight gain over the 3.....

Later
73's

 

[Turbo6]

Thanks for all the opinions. I think I will hold off doing any changing and look for more replies especially from people that have done real world testing on these antennas.

 

[Turbo6]

I talked to a couple of local guys that have had 4 element ~16' booms and ~30'+ boom 6 elements and they say its a noticable difference on transmit and receive so I have a M-106C on the way with a 5KW gamma match SHould have it up in a couple weeks.

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

I hope they had BOTH a 4 element and a 6 element up at the same time to compare things as they should be.There will be a SMALL differance but not worth the effort/expense to change.If it was an initial purchase/install I would say go for it but you asked if the UPGRADE was worth it.It is human nature to find results as you would expect them,ie. expect a big increase because someone told you should therefore you will.I used to have a paticular announcer that would constantly complain about the quality of the off-air feed into the studios.There was NOTHING wrong with it.After a while I would go behind the equipment rack and just stand there a minute or two and then ask him how it sounded.He always replied that it was much better. I did the little "adjustment" trick several times before showing him what I was really doing,or not doing in this case,in front of others.He never complained about the audio feed again.My point is that unless the two things can be compared at the same time and location it becomes a subjective issue,you expect therefore you will find.Good luck on your project.

 

[Turbo6]

I hope they had BOTH a 4 element and a 6 element up at the same time to compare things as they should be.There will be a SMALL differance but not worth the effort/expense to change.If it was an initial purchase/install I would say go for it but you asked if the UPGRADE was worth it.It is human nature to find results as you would expect them,ie. expect a big increase because someone told you should therefore you will.I used to have a paticular announcer that would constantly complain about the quality of the off-air feed into the studios.There was NOTHING wrong with it.After a while I would go behind the equipment rack and just stand there a minute or two and then ask him how it sounded.He always replied that it was much better. I did the little "adjustment" trick several times before showing him what I was really doing,or not doing in this case,in front of others.He never complained about the audio feed again.My point is that unless the two things can be compared at the same time and location it becomes a subjective issue,you expect therefore you will find.Good luck on your project.

One guy had both 25' off the ground....one in his front yard and one in the back. The other guy took one down and put the other up. Its only $140 more + the gamma and i can use the other antenna for another project I want to try. I like experimenting with different things....its fun to me. I will do signal reports from a few directions, write it down, then switch. I have a close neighbor that runs big power and I usually have my beam to the side of him so it should help the bleedover too. We'll see! BTW I'm not expecting a big increase in gain but will be happy with a very small one.