• You can now help support WorldwideDX when you shop on Amazon at no additional cost to you! Simply follow this Shop on Amazon link first and a portion of any purchase is sent to WorldwideDX to help with site costs.

One of those.... "trying to gain experience" type questions.....

guitar_199

Sr. Member
Mar 8, 2011
909
1,179
153
Deer Park, TX
Good morning all. A dumb question.... maybe.... but it will help with an adjustment in my head.

Let's say that a radio was perfectly aligned 25 years ago.

Does that "25 years of time" cause the alignment to go out?
Does it require "component failure" for alignment to fall out?
Or is it actually pretty common to find that they have just "drifted off frequency"?
Can a radio "just drift" out of alignment so bad that the performance REALLY IS "in the dirt" so to speak? Like.... horrible.....

Thanks again... just trying to gain some insight.
Bob
 

Good morning all. A dumb question.... maybe.... but it will help with an adjustment in my head.

Let's say that a radio was perfectly aligned 25 years ago.

Does that "25 years of time" cause the alignment to go out?
Does it require "component failure" for alignment to fall out?
Or is it actually pretty common to find that they have just "drifted off frequency"?
Can a radio "just drift" out of alignment so bad that the performance REALLY IS "in the dirt" so to speak? Like.... horrible.....

Thanks again... just trying to gain some insight.
Bob
I'm going to start with electrolytic caps simply because they such a common point of failure. The electrolyte they take their name from is a chemical compound that reacts with it's environment inside each cap. That reaction has been happening over that 25 years of storage, possibly changing the value of one or more caps. So while nothing may have "failed", adjustments may not be right any more.

Has the radio got "Sony bond" gluing parts to the board or each other? Over the years that can become conductive and/or corrosive. So the components stuck in it may still be good but have had their leads eaten off.

The radio may have been through many heating and cooling cycles while being stored. Such things can cause metal to expand and contract. If everything doesn't expand and contract at exactly the same rates, cracks can develop that cant turn into cold solder joints or other issues that affect conductivity inside of or between parts.

Tantalums can change value with age, dust build up can cause active components to start overheating sooner, and other scenarios I haven't thought of that the experienced techs here have seen can also affect that 25 year old alignment.

So I wouldn't expect a radio that's been in storage for 25 years to be perfectly on frequency. I'd be happy if it worked at all.
 
I'm going to start with electrolytic caps simply because they such a common point of failure. The electrolyte they take their name from is a chemical compound that reacts with it's environment inside each cap. That reaction has been happening over that 25 years of storage, possibly changing the value of one or more caps. So while nothing may have "failed", adjustments may not be right any more.

Has the radio got "Sony bond" gluing parts to the board or each other? Over the years that can become conductive and/or corrosive. So the components stuck in it may still be good but have had their leads eaten off.

The radio may have been through many heating and cooling cycles while being stored. Such things can cause metal to expand and contract. If everything doesn't expand and contract at exactly the same rates, cracks can develop that cant turn into cold solder joints or other issues that affect conductivity inside of or between parts.

Tantalums can change value with age, dust build up can cause active components to start overheating sooner, and other scenarios I haven't thought of that the experienced techs here have seen can also affect that 25 year old alignment.

So I wouldn't expect a radio that's been in storage for 25 years to be perfectly on frequency. I'd be happy if it worked at all.

Thanks for the input.
I am "girding up" for retirement... buying/collecting all kinds of old CBs to "mess with" and try to fix and tune up just for my own fun.
A lot of times they are really wildly variable on "how well they work". Even when they do work.. some receive stronger.... some not so well. Some transmit okay... again.. some not so well.

So all of what you said makes sense.
 
Thanks for the input.
I am "girding up" for retirement... buying/collecting all kinds of old CBs to "mess with" and try to fix and tune up just for my own fun.
A lot of times they are really wildly variable on "how well they work". Even when they do work.. some receive stronger.... some not so well. Some transmit okay... again.. some not so well.

So all of what you said makes sense.
Then I'd wait for the smart people that hang out here to have some input. If I said it and it makes sense, something's off somewhere.
 
While electrolytic caps may need to be tested, they are not necessarily the central or single cause of tuning errata. Their failure results in a circuit that isn't provided the necessary voltage/current due to rising internal resistance (called 'ESR'; or 'equivalent series resistance'). Sure am grateful for electrolytic cap testers that work in circuit; aren't you? Cheap radios often mean cheaper components, and these caps aren't the best in most CB radios. Extreme temperature and moisture shifts over 25 years with those cheap caps is a formula for failure and in need of testing and possible replacement.

The 'tuned' parts of most transistor-based radio circuits (oscillator, tripler, etc) are attributed to passive cap and resistor value changes due to accumulated moisture content and corruption of the construction materials. Heat and humidity are the culprits to cheaper grades of resistors used in CB radios. As well as even third rate mylar and styrene caps will do. Even ceramic discs and silver mica can fail due to excessive moisture if the seal on the legs have broken off or corrosion is present.

No different than those fine tuned Fender tube amps that you work on. However, that is where the comparison ends, since passive coupling caps are under far more strain in a hot tube amp circuit, and this heat is concentrated inside the chassis. But so are the tone circuit caps failure for the same reason. Disc caps also can become microphonic and need replacing while otherwise still showing to be well in tolerance due to cyclical humidity and heat exposure over time.

Like you said, for those who need to gain experience and want to know 'why' . . .
I know I needed to find out these things when I got into radio electronics!
 
To emphasize @Robb point - the age of the material, the age of the sealing they used to package the material - and the type of materials used - requires some understanding of how different materials can migrate or diffuse into other elements giving you vastly different results while separated by the very insulator used to keep the plates apart and insulated from each other with a medium of material that exhibits a specific trait that gives the capacitor it's "capacitance" or characteristic.

It's also why they mention "tolerance" the part can drift, or even when made, can exhibit this character - so they use it, then later it its service life - it's now changed to this. Why?

Well, look up the different ways corrosion or mitigation, migration - diffusion and reduction - all processes of taking one material and applying natural events or subjective events (Heat moisture sunlight as examples) and watching the way it degrades or is reduced - to what end and by what degree - is part of the answer to the question you ask,

There's Galvanic, Electrolytic and Oxidization as just several means of the mechanisms of the reduction or degradation of performance in a part.

You can mix two materials typically inert - or presume as such, and later the impurities within the two substances will cause a recombination and form new materials - which if pressure, heat or some natural event (water CO2) can accelerate the process.

What is interesting to think about, is taking a typical piece of metal; a bolt, for example and when exposed to stress, vibration, salt, water, heat and air - it rusts of course, but why rust why not something else?

The process is reduction, and the material is simply reverting back to its original state. But realize too - the energy expenditure we had to produce; we applied heat to melt it, added ingredients to make it an alloy of other materials to refine it and make it harder - yet it still corrodes and rusts away - that process of reduction is the very same thing even synthetic materials are subjected to - and reduction affects them in various ways too.

So, in some thoughts, this is more of the process of conservation of energy - not created or destroyed, what we "made" using energy, is now in the process of reduction as it is being "attacked" by elements we used energy to remove - are now trying to get back into it to revert it back into a stable state.

So when you look at tuning circuits - yes, they do change with age, but not just from bad components, ("Bad referring to poor construction) but the materials used in the components change as they age - again the impurities or even the mixture that is stable, but degrades over time not yet defined when they made it - like ferric-chrome - Microorganisms living in Fe poor regions can produce a type of energy from the transport of Iron from one form (a chelation effort from rock) to be combined with another metal forming into another alloy. You don't always plan for the worst, but these events are discovered only when things degrade over time and you need to know why.
 
Last edited:
Checking alignment is a diagnostic step when evaluating a radio that's "weak" on receive sensitivity or transmit power. You do that first and then look for what's broke if it doesn't fix the problem right away. I never know whether a radio with six slugs that are not peaked is the victim of tweakeritis, or just age.

I do know that circuit elements drift with age. But I don't have any body of experimental measurement to judge how much. My interest is entirely practical. If realignment provides the desired result, it's time to move on to the next job.

But yeah, an old radio is seldom found to be peaked properly. Just no way to be sure as to why.

And if a particular adjustment won't align properly, you know to scrutinize the circuit where it's located.

73
 
Now THAT sparked a question that is directly related..... at least in MY sick mind!!!!!

I have heard before... and your saying so here is a refresher....
You can begin to identify problems.... by doing an alignment!!!! (more or less)

Now here is the question.

When I read alignment procedures in SAMS photofacts (and other places!)... on the receive side... they often have you inject signals of appropriate frequency to certain points on the board.... then tune certain slugs (and maybe trimmers?) for a peak output. Like they wil inject 455Khz at a point and have you tune a set...and BOOM now your 455KHz IF is good. So now set your generator to a different frequency, feed it in to an earlier point and tune THOSE slugs... and ultimately .... you make it all the way back to the RF amp.

But almost ALL of them say.... "tune for peak" (meaning... measure the audio out at the speaker or speaker jack and keep the RF signal appropriately low (to avoid AGC squashing effects I suppose)...but watch for audio peaks as you tune slugs.

Finally...... the question......

IS THIS good enough?

What I am getting at is.... way back in MY DAWN of electronics I remember discussions of "skirt shapes" and having a given IF stage set "wide enough" to cover a "range of frequencies" AROUND the IF.... which gives a skirt shape (kind of the old "wide hump" waveform.

My brain tells me that "just peaking" the audio is not necessarily going to do that. It won't always wind up with the "wide skirt".... but possibly a much sharper peak at the specified IF frequency.

I am thinking that this is why many used sweep generators AROUND the IF freq... so that they could actually "tune the skirt" so to speak.

And YET..... SAMS says..... "tune to peak" on an audio meter.

Am I OVERTHINKING this??????
Can one just "go with the peak" and expect good results???

If you (or anyone) can offer any commentary on this I would wildly appreciate it.

Thanks in advance!
Bob

Checking alignment is a diagnostic step when evaluating a radio that's "weak" on receive sensitivity or transmit power. You do that first and then look for what's broke if it doesn't fix the problem right away. I never know whether a radio with six slugs that are not peaked is the victim of tweakeritis, or just age.

I do know that circuit elements drift with age. But I don't have any body of experimental measurement to judge how much. My interest is entirely practical. If realignment provides the desired result, it's time to move on to the next job.

But yeah, an old radio is seldom found to be peaked properly. Just no way to be sure as to why.

And if a particular adjustment won't align properly, you know to scrutinize the circuit where it's located.

73
 

dxChat
Help Users
  • No one is chatting at the moment.
  • @ Wildcat27:
    Hello I have a old school 2950 receives great on all modes and transmits great on AM but no transmit on SSB. Does anyone have any idea?
  • @ ButtFuzz:
    Good evening from Sunny Salem! What’s shaking?
  • dxBot:
    63Sprint has left the room.
  • dxBot:
    kennyjames 0151 has left the room.