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Oxy-Hydrogen Gas / Brown Gas / HHO / Gas Lighting

Alabama Buckeye

Dogma Heretic
Jul 29, 2022
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Magic City Alabama
Gas Lighting, is a reference to someone's comment which cause you to second-guess yourself, your memories, recent events, and perceptions. After communicating with the person gaslighting you, you may be left feeling dazed and wondering.
I've heard the term rather often as of late, I guess it's more common these daze :eek: and was curious of the meaning. I can't recall ever having been put in such a position. I guess it's cause I can smell bull excrement when I hear it.

But that's not the gas lighting I'm addressing. I'm speaking to HHO for short or oxy-hydrogen or brown gas used in a number of applications for centuries past, including city street lighting of long ago and for the more recent application as fuel for automobiles.
There is much published by nay-sayers including side of the mouth Popular Mechanics writer; wherein they can't say it doesn't work just alot about why is shouldn't. Including the issue of more energy necessary to produce the HHO than the resulting output. Look folks, if I get a 3% fuel economy improvement that's a gain however you want to dice it. I employed a single 25 plate/4 cell HHO generator powered by the alternator's 13.8V controlled by a cheap PWM controller, which was only able to pass 5 amp current. I got that meager 3% fuel economy improvement applying no changes in driving habits in my '94 Chevy Silverado with 350CID engine; always conservative, except on my Rocket III. And all are anecdotal FACTs.

And that another thing! Nay-sayer PM writers, et al, dismissing experience and slamming anecdotal evidence as just shy of falsewhoods.
How many of you pukes (speaking to gas lighting nay-sayers) ever conducted a scientific/documented inquiry? NASA published support for HHO decades ago and its application with commercial diesels. As sure as you don't know shite from Shinola, it is just as likely they didn't speak the same of gasoline engine fuel economy was the highest probability of fuel industry backlash.

Hundai, contrary to gas lighting nay-sayer's excrement, is producing a hybrid hybrid which is electric and hydrogen powered. Yes you go that right! The Nexo runs 100% on HHO; not really, refueled with HHO then generates electricity from the HHO (hybrid hybrid). High priced for a real oinker (161HP). And I hope that HHO tank is as safe as they say.

I made mention elsewhere of installing HHO into my '70 CST, also with a 350CID V8, but enlarged the generator to 12 cells and installed a mega alternator and upgraded to pricey computerized PWM controller. I don't care how much amperage I need, the alternator is that big; but, the current carrying capacity of the wiring is what is of importance. This caused me to delve into my HHO research; and, here it is should you be interested in what wiring you need for your 400W barefoot radio.
1668230447514.png

Faraday formula says I could run 12A per stack of 4 cell, but I'll start with 10A which means I'm looking at just near 400W or 30Amps; and, your barefoot radio.
1668232591101.png

But 12A per stack x3 (12 cells) for 36A total I'm pressing up against the 10ga versus 8AWG fence; and, I really don't to fight with 8 gauge. The 5.7L V8 will operate optimally on 1.4L of HHO per minute and with 30 amps flowing I'm producing 1.9L. I may press for the fence should 1.9L proves itself with large fuel economy gains. But I'll have to dial it back on my RCI2970N4 barefoot radio. Thankfully I've a remote for the HHO Generator PWM Controller and can dial it back instead; should 1111111...111 try to walk on me.
 
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Greg T

WDX-945 (Jazz Singer) Upper Peninsula of Michigan
Sep 18, 2014
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I've been researching and playing with HHO generation and consumption for decades. Though, I don't have a lab, I have decades of hot rod and engine building experience under my old belt. The issue we have today with hydrogen combustion is the ECM units are not programmed to recognize when hydrogen has been introduced to the engine. All the computer knows is what it's being fed via sensors. The fact is that the 02 sensors will read the amount of oxygen in the exhaust and trim the fuel accordingly. So, in a nut shell, the ECM negates the positive effects of HHO by fattening the A/F ratio.

If you really want to see how HHO increases combustion efficiency, try it on a 74 Buick 350, or 70 Ford 351 or some other pre-ECM vehicle. I have had some incredible results over the decades that people laughed at. I was once called the mad professor in my little town because someone saw the bottles and hoses under my hood. What they really didn't notice was the HHO generation and the water injection systems that were netting me 37mpg in my 72 Buick Electra with a 455. Also had an 69 International 1/2 4x4 pickup with a 304 v8 that was averaging about 30 mpg. But, back then one could rejet and lean out the mix, add the HHO and water injection to compensate for the lean condition. No ECM second guessing your tune.

As the EPA tightened restrictions and the smog motors got worse and worse, the better the HHO performed. The EPA forced low compression, inefficient head design and retarded cam and ignition timing on us. Horsepower and torque output was in the basement. I'm here to tell ya, I could change the cam timing, advance the initial spark timing, raise the compression and rejet, and by adding my HHO and water injection was able to pass a sniffer test. I may pick up a vintage ride and start playing again in my old age.
 

Alabama Buckeye

Dogma Heretic
Jul 29, 2022
245
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Magic City Alabama
You're right about goobermint meddling Greg,
I don't think you need to go that far back.
My '94 Silverado, 350CID V8, didn't get a major boost with it's single 24 cell Stack drawing a cool 5A current; at which current the dirt cheap PWM could only produce was a meager mileage improvement. The 24 cell stack was capable of 12A draw without overheating, according to Faraday. I believe the '94 Silverado had the earlier version OBD I ECM.

Have designed a 1.99gal reservoir with integral 1.77L Primary Drier. sorta resembles Wests Texas on the end view.
316SS 16ga 12" long with body shape like West Texas for fender well fitment. The Texas Panhandle/Srn New Mexico State Line shelf, extends another 500miles westward, for mounting Constant Current PWM, This CCPWM will allow crankin 'er up to 30A to start, 36A top target.

Original dual 1.5L plastic reservoirs buckled under the vacuum of the V8. My '70 CST also with a 350CID V8, had zero OEM ECM; and this resulted in a crap load of foam with a current increase to 17A. Had to put a choke on the vacuum and dial back the amps. Have been investigating anti-foaming agents that wouldn't have to be replenished with every fuel (water) fill-up. KOH, Potassium Hydroxide, only need be included as the electrolyzer initially. KOH doesn't get used up in the process.

Calculated 1.99g reduced to 0.9 gallon (50%) would increase the 10% KOH ratio to 22% :eek: This would normally, without a CCPWM, result in a amperage run-away. With the CCPWM the HHO production will still increase but not at the rate of an uncontrolled amperage draw.

'70 CST, upgraded with a Holley Sniper EFI which has an integral ECM, with only one O2 sensor. Leaness can be manually set through its controller; or allowed to run automatically through it's "Learn" programming.

Saw a quite believable YouTube vid recently documenting 18.3MPG by a 7.2L diesel, on a 2790 mile east coast trip. I've no idea what is normal for these engines but 18.3 sounded astonishing.

Had a Chevy Luv truck way back when. Installed water injector on it. Didn't notice anything remarkable; but, spark plugs were always clean :)
 
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Greg T

WDX-945 (Jazz Singer) Upper Peninsula of Michigan
Sep 18, 2014
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Don't expect water injection to net an increase. Water injection is only used to stop the detonation of a lean condition, allowing you to keep the aggressive ignition curve while maintaining cool, safe combustion. Also, mix methanol 50/50 with the water. Much better cooling effect.

A couple of decades ago I was toying with fuel injectors to regulate the HHO intake. I had drilled and tapped 4 holes in the intake and inserted some 50 lb/hr injectors. I was playing with PWM to operate the injectors and letting the HHO storage container hold a pressure. Pressure feeding the injectors was the ticket. PLUS, easy to regulate the reservoir pressure with a popoff valve. Worked great on the carbed vehicles, but still had issues with ECM overriding the A/F mix on the newer cars. Now, if one would use HPTuners to edit the fuel tables in the ECM it could work very well. The problem would be that if you ran without the HHO you'd have to put the OEM tune back in it.
 

Alabama Buckeye

Dogma Heretic
Jul 29, 2022
245
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Magic City Alabama
Screwing up an engine by any intake of water vapor laden KOH is a real concern. Absent an anti-foaming agent I employed a three level drying schema. The upper 1/2L of each 1.5L plastic reservoirs, where all the foaming action was seen, was the first level.
2nd level is a 2" dia. x 8" PVC tube rested vertically between the two reservoirs. Stainless pot scrubbers were inserted into the tube. Any moisture vapor was expected to precipitate out in this Drier. The 3rd and final drier, a clear 2" x 12" acrylic thin wall tube with opened up stainless steel scouring pads inserted into each end to serve as a condensation nuclei, assuming they are not sterile clean, for any possible water vapor that reached this point. No water vapor was ever seen in this third stage drier.

An absolutely clean inside windshield will not fog up on you, due to absence of condesation nuclei.

My newly designed SS reservoir system will have only two drier stages. I've settled on a Clorox brand, Spa defoaming agent. It calculates out to 0.9cc of this agent per gallon of distilled water is not too much trouble.

IMG_1274[1].JPG
 
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Alabama Buckeye

Dogma Heretic
Jul 29, 2022
245
198
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Magic City Alabama
I don't know what I was thinking when previously I said, "I made mention elsewhere of installing HHO into my '70 CST, also with a 350CID V8, but enlarged the generator to 12 cells..."

A cell is a single division of a stack and a single stack is 6 cells per generator. Each of my generators is 4 stacks of 6 cells for 24 cells combined with two more 24 cell stacks for a total of 72 cells. Cell voltage, using Faraday's Laws of Electrolysis, is 2V per cell; which is a bit greater, 2.3V, with normal 13.8V vehicle voltage is available.

These generators are in a protective caged rack attached to the frame rail, mid-ship, under the truck. This makes for quick and easy cell production level checks and temperature gun sensor access.

Gravity alone supplying the generator will, with the applied amperage, produce an expected quantity of HHO gas slowly bubbling up through the H2O/KOH solution that fills the return line until it meets the uphill climb back to the engine bay. As amperage is increased so does the generated heat at the stacks. Regulating engine vacuum comes into play without excessive foam being drawn up the return line, as cooler fresh solution is drawn into the generator stacks; but stll allowing for a duration for the electrolysis process to occur. What we'd like to see is roughly the upper 1/2 of the cells void of solution by the production of HHO while the heat of the cells is disipated through conduction by the lower sections of the cells being submerged in the cooling inflow of fresh solution.
It's a challenge to avoid overheating with fresh solution inflow to the generators while at the same reducing the vacuum so the solution isn't making the full uphill climb back to the reservoir. The 350CID V8 has that potential at the intake manifold.
Another challenge is seasonal temperatures which must be observed to regulate generator temperature.

1668744187448.png
1668744653063.png

Inflow Port Outflow Port
I'm not promoting this Name Brand. But, showing an example of a 24 cell HHO generator and its likeness to one of my 3ea x 24 cell stacks.

I calculate one of these units supplied with 10A will produce ample HHO for a 2.1L - 2.7L engine
1.4L / Minute is the desired HHO production for a 5.7L (350CID V8) engine. Based on the table above at 10A I can project 1.9L HHO available to the Chevy 350 V8. At 7.5A x 3, the 3ea x 24 cell stacks would meet that 1.4L / minute HHO production. I'm jucing it at 10A (30A total) aiming for a high % MPG gain.
 
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Greg T

WDX-945 (Jazz Singer) Upper Peninsula of Michigan
Sep 18, 2014
877
1,341
153
69
Escanaba, Michigan
I don't know what I was thinking when previously I said, "I made mention elsewhere of installing HHO into my '70 CST, also with a 350CID V8, but enlarged the generator to 12 cells..."

A cell is a single division of a stack and a single stack is 6 cells per generator. Each of my generators is 4 stacks of 6 cells for 24 cells combined with two more 24 cell stacks for a total of 72 cells. Cell voltage, using Faraday's Laws of Electrolysis, is 2V per cell; which is a bit greater, 2.3V, with normal 13.8V vehicle voltage is available.

These generators are in a protective caged rack attached to the frame rail, mid-ship, under the truck. This makes for quick and easy cell production level checks and temperature gun sensor access.

Gravity alone supplying the generator will, with the applied amperage, produce an expected quantity of HHO gas slowly bubbling up through the H2O/KOH solution that fills the return line until it meets the uphill climb back to the engine bay. As amperage is increased so does the generated heat at the stacks. Regulating engine vacuum comes into play without excessive foam being drawn up the return line, as cooler fresh solution is drawn into the generator stacks; but stll allowing for a duration for the electrolysis process to occur. What we'd like to see is roughly the upper 1/2 of the cells void of solution by the production of HHO while the heat of the cells is disipated through conduction by the lower sections of the cells being submerged in the cooling inflow of fresh solution.
It's a challenge to avoid overheating with fresh solution inflow to the generators while at the same reducing the vacuum so the solution isn't making the full uphill climb back to the reservoir. The 350CID V8 has that potential at the intake manifold.
Another challenge is seasonal temperatures which must be observed to regulate generator temperature.

View attachment 61312 View attachment 61314
Inflow Port Outflow Port
I'm not promoting this Name Brand. But, showing an example of a 24 cell HHO generator and its likeness to one of my 3ea x 24 cell stacks.

I calculate one of these units supplied with 10A will produce ample HHO for a 2.1L - 2.7L engine
1.4L / Minute is the desired HHO production for a 5.7L (350CID V8) engine. Based on the table above at 10A I can project 1.9L HHO available to the Chevy 350 V8. At 7.5A x 3, the 3ea x 24 cell stacks would meet that 1.4L / minute HHO production. I'm jucing it at 10A (30A total) aiming for a high % MPG gain.
I like your generation methods. Looks like a good design. But I'm here to tell you that using engine vacuum for distribution is not the way to go. Here is the problem: An engine creates it's highest vacuum at part/light throttle cruise. but that's when you need the LEAST amount of HHO. In an ideal world, you would want the most HHO at heavy throttle, acceleration, pulling trailers, etc. But the more throttle you give, the less vacuum generated. You'll find the injection method of ingestion works VERY well when the injectors are controlled with PWM. You can tune the injectors to supply more HHO during acceleration and cut back during light throttle cruise conditions.
 

Alabama Buckeye

Dogma Heretic
Jul 29, 2022
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Magic City Alabama
E=MC²...F♭ , that's funny, I don't care who you are.
Can't argue and I'm aware. And in a pulling contest or mountain grade that would be of concern. How's < 2500rpm cruise on a easy Sunday drive going to be affected, not much I imagine; excluding occasional rabbit lauches from the traffic lights, but that's rare. I drive like an fuddy duddy; looking both ways twice, at intersections.
However, more on the " You'll find the injection method of ingestion works VERY well..." and PWM controller.
My daughter will be the next owner and I've know idea how heavy her foot is :eek:

Don't get me wrong, I love me some torque; and, I aren't afraid to use it.
I never spared the torque when riding my Rocket III.
I can hardly believe KIA is coming out with a 576HP sedan.

Watched a YouBoob video recently, where a 3.0L Suburban test with a single stack (18 cell) HHO generator, with no PWM, was on Trial. Numb nut YooBoob testical applied a measley 4% KOH solution and no stated amount of current was applied, which resulted in ZERO gain; no snot Sherlock. I previously posted, the 24 cell generator was good for maybe a 2.7L engine at 10A.
 
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Greg T

WDX-945 (Jazz Singer) Upper Peninsula of Michigan
Sep 18, 2014
877
1,341
153
69
Escanaba, Michigan
E=MC²...F♭ , that's funny, I don't care who you are.
Can't argue and I'm aware. And in a pulling contest = mountain grade that would be of concern. How's < 2500rpm cruise on a easy Sunday drive going to be affected, not much I imagine; excluding occasional rabbit lauches from the traffic lights, but that's rare. I drive like an fuddy duddy; looking both ways twice, at intersections.
However, more on the " You'll find the injection method of ingestion works VERY well..." and PWM controller.
My daughter will be the next owner and I've know idea how heavy her foot is :eek:

That's why injection works. You can use a TPS to feed data to the PWM controller. If everything is based on throttle position it matters not who is driving. Stan Meyer was working on a combination spark plug/injector when he "died".
 

Alabama Buckeye

Dogma Heretic
Jul 29, 2022
245
198
43
Magic City Alabama
:unsure: TPS you say? The Holley Sniper internal ECM reads TPS but accessing that to input to a PWM :unsure: This will certainly take some study.

Stan Meyer's death, suspicious. "While in a business meeting with his brother and two potential foreign investors, Stanley began to violently vomit, and his brother claimed Stanley’s final words were that he was poisoned."
 

Greg T

WDX-945 (Jazz Singer) Upper Peninsula of Michigan
Sep 18, 2014
877
1,341
153
69
Escanaba, Michigan
:unsure: TPS you say? The Holley Sniper internal ECM reads TPS but accessing that to input to a PWM :unsure: This will certainly take some study.

Stan Meyer's death, suspicious. "While in a business meeting with his brother and two potential foreign investors, Stanley began to violently vomit, and his brother claimed Stanley’s final words were that he was poisoned."

One could simply install a dedicated TPS specifically for the PWM. A potentiometer could be used and a bracket/actuator fabricated. The pot value would naturally have to coincide with the input demanded by the PWM controller. This system would be similar to the speed controllers used on most electric golf cars.
 

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