O
Old Pirate56
Guest
When you don't have a meter that reads PEP on sideband is it possible to convert the rms readings to give an indication of PEP.
Pirate
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Pirate
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there is no such thing as rms power. rms is a term that deals with currents and voltages measured to determine cw or average power. advertisers picked up on this term back in the late 70's under IHF A202 when the term was used simply as extreme shorthand for power in watts calculated from measuring the RMS Voltage. (RMS is validly used in this context) in stereo equipment, no less. the guy who mistakenly translated this confusion into the radio-communications electronics arena should be soundly thrashed.
the line of Bird wattmeters that we are all familiar with measure power in Continuous Sinusoidal Wave, CW for short or better understood as average power. (excluding the 4300-400 Peak Power Measurement Modification Kit)
The confusion in terminology comes because the nominated amplifier load for the measurement is nearly always purely resistive. For this case (only), the measured average power is proportional to the MS [mean square--ed] current or voltage (not RMS) or is (exactly) equal to RMS current times RMS voltage. But the figure resulting from this calculation is not RMS power!
let's hit that again....RMS Current multiplied by RMS Voltage equals measured Average Power.
By contrast, RMS (root mean square) power, (if there was such a thing) would have to be defined as the square root of the time average of the square of the instantaneous power, since this is what 'RMS' means. This could be done, but it is not the power as measured, and furthermore, it would have no technical significance (e.g. it doesn't measure heating power).
In a properly-adjusted AM transmitter, average power at 100% modulation = 1.5 X resting carrier power, and PEP = 4 X resting carrier power. (as was loosely alluded to previously)
In SSB, depending on voice characteristics, average power may run 50% to 65% of PEP.
now, your question........
When you don't have a meter that reads PEP on sideband is it possible to convert the rms readings to give an indication of PEP.
what are you measuring for average power presently and what radio are we talking about?
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p067.ezboard.com/bworldwidecbradioclub.showUserPublicProfile?gid=freecell>freecell</A> at: 6/7/04 11:14 am
the line of Bird wattmeters that we are all familiar with measure power in Continuous Sinusoidal Wave, CW for short or better understood as average power. (excluding the 4300-400 Peak Power Measurement Modification Kit)
The confusion in terminology comes because the nominated amplifier load for the measurement is nearly always purely resistive. For this case (only), the measured average power is proportional to the MS [mean square--ed] current or voltage (not RMS) or is (exactly) equal to RMS current times RMS voltage. But the figure resulting from this calculation is not RMS power!
let's hit that again....RMS Current multiplied by RMS Voltage equals measured Average Power.
By contrast, RMS (root mean square) power, (if there was such a thing) would have to be defined as the square root of the time average of the square of the instantaneous power, since this is what 'RMS' means. This could be done, but it is not the power as measured, and furthermore, it would have no technical significance (e.g. it doesn't measure heating power).
In a properly-adjusted AM transmitter, average power at 100% modulation = 1.5 X resting carrier power, and PEP = 4 X resting carrier power. (as was loosely alluded to previously)
In SSB, depending on voice characteristics, average power may run 50% to 65% of PEP.
now, your question........
When you don't have a meter that reads PEP on sideband is it possible to convert the rms readings to give an indication of PEP.
what are you measuring for average power presently and what radio are we talking about?
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p067.ezboard.com/bworldwidecbradioclub.showUserPublicProfile?gid=freecell>freecell</A> at: 6/7/04 11:14 am
Re: AVG TO PEP
Root-mean-square (rms) refers to the most common mathematical method of defining the effective VOLTAGE or CURRENT of an AC wave.
To determine rms value, three mathematical operations are carried out on the function representing the AC waveform:
(1) The square of the waveform function (usually a sine wave) is determined.
(2) The function resulting from step (1) is averaged over TIME.
(3) The square root of the function resulting from step (2) is found.
when the operation has been performed for both RMS values of CURRENT and VOLTAGE, AVERAGE POWER can be determined.
pick and re-phrase all you want to. there is no such thing as RMS power. RMS Current (I) X RMS Voltage (E) = Average Power (P). it's not "My Definition" so i don't have to rethink it.
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p067.ezboard.com/bworldwidecbradioclub.showUserPublicProfile?gid=freecell>freecell</A> at: 6/8/04 9:08 am
Root-mean-square (rms) refers to the most common mathematical method of defining the effective VOLTAGE or CURRENT of an AC wave.
To determine rms value, three mathematical operations are carried out on the function representing the AC waveform:
(1) The square of the waveform function (usually a sine wave) is determined.
(2) The function resulting from step (1) is averaged over TIME.
(3) The square root of the function resulting from step (2) is found.
when the operation has been performed for both RMS values of CURRENT and VOLTAGE, AVERAGE POWER can be determined.
pick and re-phrase all you want to. there is no such thing as RMS power. RMS Current (I) X RMS Voltage (E) = Average Power (P). it's not "My Definition" so i don't have to rethink it.
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p067.ezboard.com/bworldwidecbradioclub.showUserPublicProfile?gid=freecell>freecell</A> at: 6/8/04 9:08 am
P
Peddler 356
Guest
Re: AVG TO PEP
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>How does this apply to a 12 pack of Bud Light? <hr></blockquote>
Ahhhh - a peacemaker suggests something we can agree about.
</p>
<blockquote>Quote:<hr>How does this apply to a 12 pack of Bud Light? <hr></blockquote>
Ahhhh - a peacemaker suggests something we can agree about.
and just where do you think Stephen got his information? "Most of what follows is an edited version of an email sent to me in April 2003 by the editor of Australian HI-FI. It was so well expressed I want to see it published, somewhere. So here it is." i have a copy of not only IHF A202 from 1978 but also the letter written by the university electronics professor from "The Guide" insert in my file cabinet. Stephen's site has only been up since 2003. his contribution doesn't even begin until "Ruminations by Stephen Dawson." i was in the industry when they indroduced IHF A202 and a bunch of other garbage audio standards like "PMP" (Peak Music Power) and "IPP" (Instantaneous Peak Power) that were both basically a way to make the amplifier output spec look 10 times better than it really was. the same way keydown clown amp builders inflate the numbers today with rf amplifiers. i've known that there was no such thing as RMS power since 1973-1974 after 2 years of basic electricity/tube theory and basic electronics/solid state theory. like i needed some guy who used an email that he received as an excuse to build a web page to tell me anything about all of this. mind your own business.
2
228
Guest
westcoastbusybody
i'm afraid you just don't get it. i've seen that box before. hate to tell you this but you and your sidekick there have just been awarded the much coveted "dumber than a box of rocks" award.
this thread is ended and the question originating the thread has been answered. time for you and amhype there to give it a rest.
LOL.
i'm afraid you just don't get it. i've seen that box before. hate to tell you this but you and your sidekick there have just been awarded the much coveted "dumber than a box of rocks" award.
this thread is ended and the question originating the thread has been answered. time for you and amhype there to give it a rest.
LOL.
Im so confused I want my mommy lmao your all nuts but then again so am I thats why Im here. 
Damn it boy... I thought I was going to learn something from this thread... And I did... But not what I thought!!!
RMS - Really Misleading S*** !!!!
Chow!
RMS - Really Misleading S*** !!!!
Chow!
West Coast Wattage said:
Why, where did free cell state that the information posted was determined by him, he was only trying to be helpful and answer some questions. Unlike you who likes to point out stupid shit that has nothing to due with the question asked.
SeeYa CyCole
- No one is chatting at the moment.