sirio changed the top one . no longer an astroplane clone

[bob85]

with the original astroplane and cte copy you need a conductive mast that extends below the hoop at least 9 feet unless you live in a hole and want a higher radiation angle,
the mast is part of the antenna not supplied in the box when you bought one, it will not work correctly without a conductive mast of the correct diameter for the diameter and spacing/curvature of the parallel conductive legs,

sirios top-one is a different animal nothing like an astroplane in operation,
to my eyes it has more in common with a gamma fed hat loaded dipole, it should work on a none conductive mast,
it is possible ( worth testing ) that the top-one may work better on a none conductive mast if you use a good choke at the feedpoint to force equal currents in the two antenna halfs.

 

[david wicks]

SIRIO TOP-ONE

FINNALY GOT A REPLY FROM SIRIO. THE TOP-ONE DOES NOT NEED TO BE GROUNDED TO WORK PROPERLY BUT SHOULD BE EARTHED FROM THE BOTTOM POLE WITH A THICK WIRE IF NOT ON A GROUNDED FIXTURE TO PROTECT FROM LIGHTNING.
ALSO THE TOP-ONE CAN BE PAINTED. BEST SPRAYED WITH ONLY NON CONDUCTIVE PAINT. NOT TO THICKLY WITHOUT PERFORMANCE LOSS, AS TO PRESERVE ANTENNA LIFE.
HAVE NOW PUT UP THE ANTENNA ON A FIBREGLASS POLE WITH AN OLD LENTH OF COAX CABLE THATS HAD INNER AND OUTER BRAIDING CONNECTED AS ONE. FIXED TO BOTTOM ANTENNA POLE AND RUN DOWN INSIDE OF FIBREGLASS POLE TO A GROUND ROD.
NOT ABLE TO GIVE PROPER REPORT ON PERFORMANCE AS HAVE 7 INCHES OF SNOW AND BELLOW ZERO TEMPERATURES AT THE MOMENT AT HEATHROW AIRPORT U.K. SEEMS TO WORK WELL UNDER THESE CONDITIONS. ONE THING THATS A VAST INPROVMENT ON THE ASTRO-PLANE IS ITS STABILITY IN STRONG WINDS HARDLY MOVES UNLIKE THE ASTRO-PLANE THAT WAS ALWAYS DANCING IN THE WIND, REGARDS DAVID.

 

[Marconi]

FINNALY GOT A REPLY FROM SIRIO. THE TOP-ONE DOES NOT NEED TO BE GROUNDED TO WORK PROPERLY BUT SHOULD BE EARTHED FROM THE BOTTOM POLE WITH A THICK WIRE IF NOT ON A GROUNDED FIXTURE TO PROTECT FROM LIGHTNING.
ALSO THE TOP-ONE CAN BE PAINTED. BEST SPRAYED WITH ONLY NON CONDUCTIVE PAINT. NOT TO THICKLY WITHOUT PERFORMANCE LOSS, AS TO PRESERVE ANTENNA LIFE.
HAVE NOW PUT UP THE ANTENNA ON A FIBREGLASS POLE WITH AN OLD LENTH OF COAX CABLE THATS HAD INNER AND OUTER BRAIDING CONNECTED AS ONE. FIXED TO BOTTOM ANTENNA POLE AND RUN DOWN INSIDE OF FIBREGLASS POLE TO A GROUND ROD.
NOT ABLE TO GIVE PROPER REPORT ON PERFORMANCE AS HAVE 7 INCHES OF SNOW AND BELLOW ZERO TEMPERATURES AT THE MOMENT AT HEATHROW AIRPORT U.K. SEEMS TO WORK WELL UNDER THESE CONDITIONS. ONE THING THATS A VAST INPROVMENT ON THE ASTRO-PLANE IS ITS STABILITY IN STRONG WINDS HARDLY MOVES UNLIKE THE ASTRO-PLANE THAT WAS ALWAYS DANCING IN THE WIND, REGARDS DAVID.

Hello David. Could you tell us how your did your non-conductive pole connection? Does it go all the way to the top of the antenna? I have the idea that the antenna at least needs to be conductive from the feed point hub up to the top hat.

I get the idea about lightning safety, but what is the point of changing to a non-conductive mast then adding back the conductive path to ground with the coaxial ground wire?

I have considered the difference between the original AP and the New Top One, and the only difference I see is that the New one may be a bit more symmetrical in design and that might make some difference. The current and voltage nodes are still in the same position on the antenna. I see this antenna as an effective and efficiently fed end fed 1/2 wave radiator.

Good luck with the new install and keep us posted on your efforts.

 

[david wicks]

SIRIO TOP-ONE

HI SORRY FOR THE DELAY IN ANSWERING. THE ANTENNA IS FIXED TO THE FIBREGLASS POLE WITH THE ORIGINAL FIXING KIT SUPPLYED WITH THE ANTENNA, PLEASE NOTE THESE FIBREGLASS POLES ARE VERY STRONG AND USED FOR SCAFFOLD POLES IN THE U.K. THE REASON FOR THE USE OF THESE POLES WAS EASE OF LOWERING AND RAISING ALSO CONNECTED TO THE POLE IS AN 4FOOT INSULATED FIXING THAT HOLDS ONE END OF A MULTIBAND TRAPPED DIPOLE.
DID NOT WANT TO EARTH THE TOP-ONE AS IT MAY EFFECT THE DIPOLES PERFORMANCE.WILL TRY THE DIPOLE AND SEE IF IT WORKS AS IT SHOULD.
IF IT DOES NOT ILL TAKE AWAY THE EARTHING WIRE FROM THE TOP-ONE ANTENNA. ALL MY ANTENNAS ARE EARTHED BEFORE ENTERING MY SHACK.
REGARDS DAVID.

 

[CDX-007]

sirio could have done it different but why not use what they already have on the shelf,

heres the script

"franco how can we make these look more interesting"

"we could anodise em boss make em look real nice"

"no franco that costs money and anodising dont last"

"franco we need something different, how bout you go grab me a vector i wanna try something"

" sure boss what you thinking"

"what im thinking franco is we gonna flip this thing on its head"

"on its head boss hows that gonna work"

"it will work franco go grab me a vector"

"yo franco, how bout you go get me a tornado hub and radials"

"sure boss, what you gonna do with the hub and radials"

"what im gonna do is this franco, im gonna take the hub and radials, cut the radials in half and stick em on top"

"on top boss, i aint seen it done like that before"

"zactly franco, we gotta make it look different"

"franco, how bout you flip that gamma over so we dont need an insulator and new hub"

" great idea boss will it work"

"sure it will work franco, all we gotta do is find the 50ohm tap up top and cancell the reactance with the gamma"

"boss your too smart"

"i know franco i know, thats why im the boss and your the builder"

"hey presto franco"

"boss that looks interesting and we got everything we need already, we can start building right away, what we gonna call it"

"what you think franco"

"i dont know boss, i aint never seen no antenna turned upside down with radials on top before"

"thats it franco, the name, we gonna call it the topone"

[IMG]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/ukmudduck/how%20can%20i%20make%20these%20look%20interesting/heypresto.png

You're hilarious Bob!

Should've been named the TopOneQuarter

 

[bob85]

thanks 007 lol

 

[Mr. Doug]

Bob.. does the new astroplane come with mast that goes to bottom of hoop? and what size is the mast that I will need.. ? in diameter?
Thanks in advance

 

[bob85]

yes you get some pole but i dont know how long it is, the instructions are contradictory on which tube is which,
diameter is either 33.5 or 30,5mm depending on which tube is which, my guess is they turned a vector upside down making the lower tube 30.5mm.

 

[Mr. Doug]

thanks bob..should the pole that is clamped to the mid section of the antenna be non conductive? I am confussed on that.. I need your help, LOL I will be getting it on Monday..
Thanks again

 

[bob85]

it should not matter, there may be some advantage if its none conductive and you use a choke just below the hoop but they work with a conductive mast too,
my homebrew top-one is still out in the yard waiting for longer radials,
good luck with youres and keep us posted

 

[Mr. Doug]

Thank you Sir.. I will keep you posted and thanks for the fast reply.

 

[Marconi]

well it works but not as intended,
we started with the dimentions shown in the pic and had the anenna tuned great on 30.5mhz vswr1.04:1 x=0 on the minivna,
we altered the radiator and i hurredly cut a longer gamma tube,
best we managed on 27mhz was 1.2:1 on 27.6mhz but the bandwidth was narrow,
we now know what the problem is,
sirio have made the radials longer on the new antennas, they increased radial length by 16" taking them to 106" on the vector ( claiming a lower angle of radiation )
on the top-one sirio use 102" radials a full foot longer than the old style vector which weighs in with 90" radials,

next job extend the radials for testing purposes and see how we go.

I recently built my Old Top One with a full 1/4 wave radiator @ 87.5" and compared it to my New Top One that was about 6' feet lower at the tip. Amazingly when I ran the numbers they both reported the same average signals @ 6.2 sunits over about a week of comparing the two, where I was ultimately able to record the strongest signal for all contacts made on each antenna.



I've said it before, I think these two are very much alike, albeit they're not constructed alike and are fed differently. This reminds me of a claim that is noted in Avanti's Patent on the AstroPlane that talks about how both a close or open loop would work, because of some practical rule that applies to circuit construction and design. I can't quote the words or the rule right now, and I can't say I can explain it, but it did sound reasonable when I read it.

For these reasons, I believe the A/P,OTO, and the NTO are all 1/2 wave radiators. I don't think it matters much to the actual results of all three but the NTO looks to be improved in the area of symmetry, but the A/P and the OTO, don't require a matching device which might be a bit more efficient in the feeding. Just my opinion.

I was interested in what had been said earlier on the WWRF and I did a search on the AstroPlane/New Top One and found this old thread noted above.

Bob, did you ever get your mock version of the New Top One to working right? If the top portion was about 55", the top hat radials about 22.75", and you got the radials to about 102", you pretty much had a new top one.

 

[bob85]

no i never extended the radials eddie, i have the tube but im not excited about the design,

i tend to agree they are both acting like 1/2waves, the nto been conventional gamma fed,
i see the original avanti as been a radiating 1/4wave tapered transmissionline with a 1/4wave upper section,
so long as the mast is such a length as to not cause antenna mode currents to flow on the mast

 

[Marconi]

no i never extended the radials eddie, i have the tube but im not excited about the design,

i tend to agree they are both acting like 1/2waves, the nto been conventional gamma fed,
i see the original avanti as been a radiating 1/4wave tapered transmissionline with a 1/4wave upper section,
so long as the mast is such a length as to not cause antenna mode currents to flow on the mast

Thanks Bob. You talked about this business of transmission line currents before, but I don't fully understand all the ideas. I have my NTO up sided by side with my GM and I compared it with others, and frankly I'm amazed that it works as well as it does...being as the tips are about 15' difference in height. In fact the bottom hoop is about 3'-4' feet below the coil on the GM as we speak. I would have raised it up higher since I installed it, but the winds have ruff here of late. I have an 8' foot section that I can still extend when the wind dies down and then I'll see how it fairs against the GM with the tip of the NTO at about the middle of the GM. I hope to get the bottom of the NTO at least as high as the GM's coil.

Even if your idea is right, you might be missing a chance at something, and you were so close. The picture you showed us back then appeared to look exactly the same. I can't say I see anything with this NTO that is remarkable in the sense that it outperforms other antenna I have, in fact it tends to show a little bit less signal in most cases, and this is in spite of the fact that it only has a 4' radiator above the feed point and more than 1/2 the antenna is down below the feed point. This is something that amazes me and none-the-less performs so well.

I think I'm the only one around here that has ever tried the NTO and reported any results, so maybe someday someone might try it and let us know what they find. Homer did finally try out the AstroPlane and maybe at my recommendation, and I think he found the A/P to be more effective than he imagined, but seems Homer has moved on however. Too bad.

BTW, maybe I asked this before, but have you ever tried the GM with a buddy or know any one close by that has one? Also have you ever heard me talking into your area?

 

[bob85]

the one i made had 1ft too short radials due to me making it by turning an old style vector upside down, the hat radials and hubs were the same as the nto,
i turned it back into a vector,
when i make another it will be the astroplane style,

we compared the gainmaster against the nto at about 16 miles but it was a poor test that favoured the gainmaster,
both antennas were mounted on the same pole, the nto was much more obstructed by the roof and got a whooping,
it would be unfair to take what we saw as meaning anything with regards how each would perform if they were not obstructed,

nobody else locally that we know of has a gainmaster, one local that we have not heared before had one for sale last week,
my buddy charlie oscar bought it