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THE UGLY BALUN choke


The length of the cable used to make that choke isn't what determines it's abilities -directly-. The amount of inductive impedance is the determining factor for it's usable range. I honestly don't think there's a unique choke design that will cover a huge range of frequencies and produce really good results. It can certainly reduce the amount of CMCs on the feed line, but it just ain't gonna be 'perfect' at all frequency ranges. If it can reduce the CMCs to a 'good enough' level, then good enough. And since all coax isn't exactly alike, there will be 'better' choices for each 'band' of use, not to mention the 'size' of the coil. There's enough variables in all that to keep you busy for some time! Then you change bands and get to do the whole thing over again! Oh! For joy!
- 'Doc

(Or the other way of saying it is " Oh 'spit'! ".)
 
One of the internet's more accurate sources for current choke information:

G3TXQ common mode chokes
thats very useful.......i think this should make the sticky list

Interesting to note at first look it seems it not to make to much difference what coaxe is used as 5 turns of RG 58 is very close to 5 turns of RG213 both on a 4.24 inch air former
 
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Dave, if you haven't read the text on the site that Northern35 posted to a good understanding...be sure and read it over well.

It is explained right there in the text, that the use of a choke is not always just a simple matter of checking out the chart, and finding the item description for the frequency you will use.
 
Dave, if you haven't read the text on the site that Northern35 posted to a good understanding...be sure and read it over well.

It is explained right there in the text, that the use of a choke is not always just a simple matter of checking out the chart, and finding the item description for the frequency you will use.
yes its getting technical.......................i may just go back to plan A and get a V4K
 
yes its getting technical.......................i may just go back to plan A and get a V4K

I don't know which antenna you were considering, but you might be in the same shape with the V4K, if what some say on this issue is true.

Sirio provides very good instructions, so you might have better luck with the V4K in regards to tuning. I have the Siro Gain Master and their New Top One, and both seem to work well without messing around with tuning. The GM is superior to any other antenna I have...regarding CMC's...if you can mount it reasonably high.

However, if you do go with the V4K and find you need to mitigate some CMC's, which of the choke designs do you think you might choose from this chart?
 
I don't know which antenna you were considering, but you might be in the same shape with the V4K, if what some say on this issue is true.

Sirio provides very good instructions, so you might have better luck with the V4K in regards to tuning. I have the Siro Gain Master and their New Top One, and both seem to work well without messing around with tuning. The GM is superior to any other antenna I have...regarding CMC's...if you can mount it reasonably high.

However, if you do go with the V4K and find you need to mitigate some CMC's, which of the choke designs do you think you might choose from this chart?

CMC's on a Vector 4K? I have a MFJ-915 for mine and using RG8X
 
I don't know which antenna you were considering, but you might be in the same shape with the V4K, if what some say on this issue is true.

Sirio provides very good instructions, so you might have better luck with the V4K in regards to tuning. I have the Siro Gain Master and their New Top One, and both seem to work well without messing around with tuning. The GM is superior to any other antenna I have...regarding CMC's...if you can mount it reasonably high.

However, if you do go with the V4K and find you need to mitigate some CMC's, which of the choke designs do you think you might choose from this chart?
if i get V4K i will not be using choke ....i was researching choke as if i make the 5/8 wave with 5/8 swept radels as you modeled... number 3 was good until you added the feed line in model 4, so i thinking a choke might put the TOA back to where it was in model 3


(the models are in this thread post 32
http://www.worldwidedx.com/cb-antennas/115128-antenna-modeling-uploads-4.html)
 
The example used for NOT using an 'ugly balun'/choke on that page mentioned earlier was if/when used with a horizontal dipole; not a vertical antenna. Two different animals.

Don't even bother using a choke UNLESS you have CMC's; then chose the right one from the list. They create high impedance to CMC's when placed just near/below same horizontal level of the lowest point of the radials. That is what you want - if you have a problem.

NO problem = no choke . . .
 
The example used for NOT using an 'ugly balun'/choke on that page mentioned earlier was if/when used with a horizontal dipole; not a vertical antenna. Two different animals.

Don't even bother using a choke UNLESS you have CMC's; then chose the right one from the list. They create high impedance to CMC's when placed just near/below same horizontal level of the lowest point of the radials. That is what you want - if you have a problem.

NO problem = no choke . . .

I think G3TXQ used the dipole as an example simply because it is an easy way for us to visualize the example of imbalance at the feed point (the red lines) that causes the CMC's he is discussing.

He could do the same with a vertical ground plane, but it is a bit harder to visualize the electrical imbalance (the red lines) without getting into a good understanding for how modeling handles current flow on the radiator, radials, and the mast.

His dipole model is showing the mast and a feed line, and the middle model shows really bad CMC. So, we see the red lines on the two elements of the radiator are farther apart where they are supposed to meet at the current maximum.

Each of these 3 models shows some CMC flowing, so we see none of the red lines over the radiator elements meeting perfectly, but the first and the last model are much better than the middle one.

If we call CMC's bad, then I agree they are worse on a horizontal dipole or yagi beam, because the currents on the vertical support might be radiating vertical currents, and that can really mess with the horizontally polarized beam, plus this condition can add vertical noise to your receiver that the horizontal beam may be minimizing.

With a vertical these same currents might not always be as bad, because there is no polarity differences in the mix. The big problem with vertical CMC on a mast is skewing the pattern by producing additional lobes or pushing RF into the high angle lobe...and sometimes making the higher lobe the maximum lobe.

I agree completely with your last comments above.
 
"No problem = No choke"

How do you know if you have a problem or not? If you were planning a high performance antenna install, you'd consider a number of things to make sure you had maximum efficiency, firstly the antenna type, the height, the sighting, the coax, quality connectors etc, it's at this point you should consider a choke, not when you think you have a problem, not all problems can be measured with a signal report or lack of RFI.

That said, some antennas rely on common mode current to form the other have of the antenna, no radial end fed antennas like the A99, it has to get 'the other half' from somewhere ;)
 
That said, some antennas rely on common mode current to form the other have of the antenna, no radial end fed antennas like the A99, it has to get 'the other half' from somewhere
. . . Or even a BigStick. Or for that matter - most 1/2 wave antennas. Pick a bad antenna design and you will have to do too much to make up for the crappy or compromized design. Will never own another BigStick again! Same goes for the A99. Just because an antenna works doesn't mean that it is optimal. I use an Imax 2000 and it is far from being optimal - like a Super-Penetrator 500, Sirio GainMaster, or a Vector 4000 is. Do you need chokes for those last three? No. But for the A99, BigStick, or Imax - yes. They need ground planes - too.

If an antenna designs needs to use the coax to make it work; then there will be CMC's. Pass on it if you don't want/need the headache. The A99 and Imax also have ground plane kits available for them and should be used for that reason. Still wont be optimal and CMC's are assured. A predictable, uniform pattern is preferred - and not an antenna that is affected too much by how much the wind shifts the coax around. Ya get what you pay for.

In case you wonder why I use the Imax, it is because I can use it on three Ham bands (10m, 12m, 15m, and even 17m with an antenna tuner) AND the CB band. For those reasons, I put up with the CMC's and keep the ground planes off . . .
 
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There's no need for a choke on a Sirio Gainmaster because Sirio built one into the design.
What is it about a Super Penetrator and a V4K that negates the need for a choke?
 
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This is not intended to demean you guy's opinions, but I ask that you just consider some other facts...that really should be considered too.

Millions of Cbr's have used the A99 antenna that you suggest is not optimal, and they do it without a seeming hitch. Hundreds more users have reported that when they add radial GPK to these same antennas...they can tell no difference. This has been my experience in my testing the idea as well.

If you have tested the idea and seen different results, then we just disagree on what we've observed. I'm not saying you guys are dead wrong. I too have heard such reports that adding a GPK, and a few other ideas can make the difference between daylight and dark...as to performance for this EFHW antenna.

When we read technical reports on antennas, we often read where someone has tested and determined that this or that was true, and if we do certain recommended things...it will fix some problem that exists, just as you have suggest above. However, when others disagree...you don't even consider the idea, you just tend to double down.

Then later on, as our experiences and understanding grows, we might find out that the differences described to us earlier were small and almost meaningless, in the operational sense. Additionally we have to consider that the real differences we might experience can only be realized while using our radios, and a few other tools available to most CB'r.

In the end it is obvious to me that most of this technical writing available to us on the Internet, even if it is true to the dot and tittle, is highly technical and the errors, issues, or differences to be noted are very often minimal at best. In other words, things tend to get all blown out of proportion in reading sometimes.

In this regard, I tend to see minor differences in my real world experiences in a lot of claims and assumptions with two-way radio. However, I hear you guys when you claim this same difference might be significant for you at your location. We also have to consider what you're saying in light of what we hear happened almost every day for years when guys all over the world of CB were buying and installing these same type...less than optimal antennas over and over again. The point is they worked, and in most cases they likely were considered to work well.

I close with a real-life personal experience that might help set the scene for much of my thinking on the subject. I remember when I was in the first grade or so...my school house looked really big through the eyes of a child. But, when I grew up and went back to visit my old school house, the only thing that had really changed, in my mind at least, was the size of the school...it then looked really small. So the moral of this story is, that sometimes when we read we try to find a word or phrase that seems to support our thinking and arguments, and then we tend to ignore everything else on the matter, and for sure if something seems to disagrees with our ideas.
 
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