¿ is height really might?

[BOOTY MONSTER]

I often speak to a chap in Australia who has a 200' tower with stacked 5 element monobanders, granted this is for 20m, but he's still not happy, his antenna at 200' doesn't have as low enough take off angle as he'd like. The difference between his lower antenna and upper antenna on our last contact was over 30dB, that is a huge difference

without knowing how much lower than 200 ft the other antenna is and not knowing if it's a omni or beams or stacked beams being compared ...... why is a 30 db difference so unbelievable ? if the other antenna is a dipole @ 30 ft i would think a 30 db difference could easily happen .

 

[northern35s]

I can understand why some will believe it impossible, it's the same when someone the other side of the World questions why my signal can be so strong with 75W and a vertical antenna on a backpack, it's because they haven't experienced it, that's not necessary theoretical understand, but experiential. I would ask those questioning the possibilities, how many time have you spoken to someone the other side of the World with stacked arrays who is intrigued enough to flick the switch, who is similarly amazed that the simple equipment the chap is using the other side if the World has such a significant low angle of radiation, I'm glad some people are inquisitive enough to ask.

Once you see what can be done and once you see the possibilities, it allows you to go back and make some sense of why, being in the peak gain of one antenna and the null in another isn't so unrealistic, I know because I was one part of the simple experiment. The peak gain of the upper antenna coincided with the peak, or thereabouts, of my arrival angle.

 

[The DB]

without knowing how much lower than 200 ft the other antenna is and not knowing if it's a omni or beams or stacked beams being compared ...... why is a 30 db difference so unbelievable ? if the other antenna is a dipole @ 30 ft i would think a 30 db difference could easily happen .

He stated what they were "stacked 5 element monobanders". I don't know if they are the same make and model of antenna, I am assuming they are as that is typical, but I can tell he is not comparing an omni to an 8 element yagi. Something else I don't know is how high the lower antenna is, if it is near the ground and pointed directly at the side of a hill at the time I can see it, but typically if it clears any local obstacles it shouldn't suffer that much, and if you are going through the expense of a setup like that I doubt he would put the lower antenna that low.

Is it possible that he measured the 30 dB difference? Yes, lots of things are possible in the real world. But if we are talking two identical antennas, that are both well above nearby obstacles, I begin to wonder if something else is affecting the signals/antennas.

I could be wrong, but a difference that large is significant. It seems out of the norm to me, and I am wary of large numbers being thrown out. Unfortunately I don't have a 200 foot tower to try and duplicate the results so I am stuck arm chair quarterbacking.


The DB

 

[northern35s]

And then there are those who actively look to make something from nothing when in fact they didn't understand the statement in the first place and as a result make accusations against the other party due to their own misunderstanding. I attacked nor condemned no one nor did I say he is unreasonable. I said UNLESS he is unreasonable and never satisfied. Do not change what I said and don't go looking for an argument over something stupid. I simply made an observation regarding an apparent lack of understanding of basic theory based on the info presented.

BTW it would have been prudent to post those models, even if they were rudimentary as you say, just to show us how big a difference it really was going to make. Post up the EZNEC (or whatever) plot results.

I think you should take a look at what you actually wrote as I see you have misquoted what you said, you make an exclusive statement, he either accepts things cant get any better or he's not a reasonable person, as Ive already stated he'd like a taller tower, the reader is left no choice but to accept he isn't being reasonable, you also stats he needs to learn about antennas, you can't have it both ways. I don't like word battles and he said she said games, I do like discussing antennas, their theory and the possibilities which is why I was disappointed you added the rhetoric to your argument, it isn't necessary and it's distracting from a good chat

 

[Wire Dawg]

C.K.,
I am bilingual. I speak American English and Red Neck. As everyone knows, Latin is a derivative of Red Neck'orum.

e pluribus unum If you go into medicine, please learn the following:

Medical Term................Redneck Definition
Artery.........................The study of paintings
Bacteria......................Back door to cafeteria
Barium........................What doctors do when patients die
Benign........................What you be, after you be eight
Caesarean Section........A neighborhood in Rome
Cat scan.....................Searching for Kitty
Cauterize....................Made eye contact with her
Colic..........................A sheep dog
Coma.........................A punctuation mark
Dilate.........................To live long
Enema........................Not a friend
Fester........................Quicker than someone else
Fibula.........................A small lie
Impotent....................Distinguished, well known
Labor Pain..................Getting hurt at work
Medical Staff..............A Doctor's cane
Morbid.......................A higher offer
Nitrates.....................Rates of pay for working at night, normally more money than days
Node.........................I knew it
Outpatient..................A person who has fainted
Pelvis........................Second cousin to Elvis
Post Operative............A letter carrier
Recovery Room...........Place to do upholstery
Rectum.....................Nearly killed him
Secretion..................Hiding something
Seizure.....................Roman Emperor
Tablet......................A small table
Terminal Illness..........Getting sick at the airport
Tumor......................One plus one more
Urine.......................Opposite of you're out

Aunt Tenna

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

I think you should take a look at what you actually wrote as I see you have misquoted what you said, you make an exclusive statement, he either accepts things cant get any better or he's not a reasonable person, as Ive already stated he'd like a taller tower, the reader is left no choice but to accept he isn't being reasonable, you also stats he needs to learn about antennas, you can't have it both ways. I don't like word battles and he said she said games, I do like discussing antennas, their theory and the possibilities which is why I was disappointed you added the rhetoric to your argument, it isn't necessary and it's distracting from a good chat

For someone that does not like word battles and he said she said games you sure like to pick a post apart and add your own spin to it and start a word game of he said she said. Let's stop it here now. I know what I said and what I meant. You do not see it as I do and I will never convince you of anything else as you are just as set in your way as I am in mine. The one thing I agree on is that it is distracting from the thread so let's end it here and now.

Now go and have a feed of bangers and mash and we'll see you after dinner.

 

[northern35s]

I've worked in Nova Scotia, I've seen what you guys eat, we only see such things in a zoo here :blink:

 

[BOOTY MONSTER]

........................... BTW it would have been prudent to post those models, even if they were rudimentary as you say, just to show us how big a difference it really was going to make. Post up the EZNEC (or whatever) plot results.

like that ever settled anything here ^^ ab v c^^

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

I've worked in Nova Scotia, I've seen what you guys eat, we only see such things in a zoo here :blink:

That's because we have managed our herd better and have so many left in the wild. BTW I have been to the UK a couple times too and have seen what you guys eat. Black pudding? Haggis? We leave that stuff at the abattoirs.


OK, OK. One good jab deserves another. It ends here and now OK? I end it on my end and I can end it on your end as well but I prefer to give you the chance too. :bdh:


op:

 

[wavrider]

op:op:op:op:

 

[Captain Kilowatt]

BTW it would have been prudent to post those models, even if they were rudimentary as you say, just to show us how big a difference it really was going to make. Post up the EZNEC (or whatever) plot results.

like that ever settled anything here ^^ ab v c^^

Well for those of us that can actually read them and understand what they mean it can tell the rest of the story. It also would confirm or deny suspicions that a peak in one antenna coincides with a null in another thereby accounting for the reported differences of which I never did dispute the existence of but simply offered the only viable reason that I could think of for it.