2SC1969 vs NTE236 vs 2SC2166...

[kopcicle]

I'm going to revisit this as the subject recently came up locally. In a case of "some people you just can't reach" I was assisting a local tech in a repair and the driver and final were both NTE236?! A brief look at an old NTE catalog told the tale. The NTE replacement for both the 2166 and the 1969 is the 236??

"They're the manufacturer , they know what they're doing, something else has to be wrong". Ummm , no.
I have contact with a parts scrounger in Canada that sourced a 1969 for the final and all was right again, even with a 236 in the driver hole. Now back to the "some people you just can't reach". Seems my colleague had a real winner(whiner?) for a customer. He insisted that the 236 should just work and the tech was at fault. This clown then insisted that the radio be returned as it was originally. Once the radio was returned (with the 236 in the driver and final holes) the initial reduced wattage was immediately noticed and our hapless tech was loudly labeled a cheat, fraud, thief, and incompetent. The radio was sold at a fire sale price by the disgusted owner and scooped up by a friend of the tech. Once again the radio finds it's way back to our tech and the 1969 again gets inserted into the driver hole. Of course all is right again. On hearing the radio on the air the original owner wants to buy it back...

You just can't make this stuff up.

Some time ago @nomadradio summed it up and saved me some typing.

Toshiba stopped making that kind of transistor 20-plus years ago. The 2SC1969 is made by Mitsubishi Semicondutor. A division of the same outfit that made the famous "A6M", or "Zero" single-engine fighter aircraft of WWII.

And an NTE 236 is a "re-marked" part. NTE is like Sears. They don't MAKE anything. They just buy in quantity, scrape the original markings off, and print their number on the part.

Odds are that a NTE236 will have started out its life with the number "2SC1969" on it before NTE scraped it off. Or it could be any one of a dozen other "close enough" types that NTE found for sale cheap in quantity. The problem with an NTE part isn't that the quality will be bad. The problem is with establishing the exact identity of the part BEFORE the number got scraped off. For a lot of transistors, in audio and DC power-supply circuits, the small differences aren't often a big deal.

RF circuits are different, and substituting a transistor almost NEVER works better, or as good as the original. It's like playing craps with your eyes closed. If the NTE "sub" is good enough everybody is happy. If it's only close, then the result you'll get will only be "close".

73

 

[guitar_199]

I have to ask...... is the thought of selling it back to the original owner even being considered???? He would probably only expect to pay what he SOLD it for..... thinking that is fair because it was "his in the first place".

 

[kopcicle]

He would probably only expect to pay what he SOLD it for..... thinking that is fair because it was "his in the first place".

When the three of us, the tech, the present owner, and myself finally quit laughing, the possibility came up and the laughter continued...

It hasn't happened yet, but

 

[999]

When the three of us, the tech, the present owner, and myself finally quit laughing, the possibility came up and the laughter continued...

It hasn't happened yet, but

I swear that some people actively work at being that stupid.

 

[nomadradio]

The numbers used by New Tone Electronics, or "NTE" originated with a division of Sylvania, called the Electronics Component Group. The parts sold by them had the prefix "ECG".

50 years ago, or so.

An old ECG catalog lists type "ECG235" as the AM final/SSB driver equivalent to a 2SC1306 or 2SC2166, 2SC2078 and many others.

The "236" is the sideband final transistor from that product line.

Years passed, Sylvania sold their ECG division to North American Philips. They used the name "ECG Philips" and continued to sell the ECG parts.

We'll skip the early-1980s courtroom drama when ECG got annoyed at having their part-number scheme and cross-reference catalog hijacked by this pipsqueak upstart "New Tone Electronics". Decades pass, and New Tone finally becomes the owner of the ECG product line and name.

What we came to call "baggie" parts are simply remarketed stuff purchased in bulk and renumbered to match the cross-reference catalog listings.

Had a local supplier back in the day who would reverse cross-reference the NTE numbers to an original Japanese-style number. He stocked those, and sold them for half the price of the NTE part. Of course, he was paying way less that "half-price" for the original-numbered OEM parts with the 2SA/B/C/D/J/K numbers. But he went the way of all local repair-parts suppliers years ago. His building is now a commercial print shop.

If the "235" part has been discontinued, they might very well just tell you to use the "236" if only to keep from losing a sale. But the transistor meant to be a SSB final requires more drive power than the 2SC1306/2166 and the like. Works in some radios, and not so well in others.

If you really need a driver transistor for a SSB CB, just salvage the final from the nearest junked AM mobile CB. Good chance it will match just fine.

The need to substitute components that get discontinued is as old as electronics consumer products themselves. A look at magazines from the 1920s and 1930s shows socket adapters for discontinued tubes, so you could substitute available parts for the ones you can't buy any more.

Assembled products like a 1935 Zenith console radio, or a 1977 Royce CB will always live longer than the stuff that's inside of them.

Creative and successful parts substitution has been part of the landscape for as long as anyone has been doing electronic repairs or maintenance.

My favorite example would be a guy on YouTube who calls his channel "Curious Marc". The guy repaired a broken Apollo Guidance Computer. Had to replace diodes and transistors inside "brick" modules cast in epoxy resin.

Bit by bit (literally) he and his team got the thing to power up and execute the programs stored in its memory 50-plus years ago.

Don't think he used anything marked "NTE", though.

73

 

[Dmans]

Below from Sam’s Photofact CB-127.
Heretofore known as Encyclopedia Nomad!
Excellent information as always!!

Note replacement part numbers listed for TR43 and TR44 under the Sylvania heading.

73
David

 

[Rwb]

As i ask "is stupidity heriditory?"

 

[RT431]

Here's your sign. (stupid)

 

[Tokin]

Well, he didn't take care of the radio the first time soooo.....

 

[Handy Andy]

Well, if you look carefully at the OLDER cross references...

1306 = NTE 235
1307 = NTE 236

That's' a Slightly different beast of nature versus the 2166 or the 1969 - even the 2312.​

What I thought was cute and need to be wary, Be VERY WARY of - is in using this type of part, you do not know that the pinout will work

- as in you may need to reorient the leads for some of these parts to meet the purposed hole it belongs in

• Required? For that to be a drop in replacement - which to me, if it leads have to be reconfigured to meet the pinout - it's not a direct sub nor drop in - it's a replacement - yes, but only in performance alone - if that.

Not exactly a "drop in Replacement" in one sentence - two sentences would help those that are new or just visiting the realm of "Getting this Gosh Darn thing to work again..."​

 

[Adam Tompkins]

I actually have some old GE trannies in a bag and the GE 215 and 216 also have 235 and 236 printed on them.
I have also personally swapped 2 nte236 trannies directly for a 2sc2312 and 2sc1969 in the same radio and everything worked fine. Swapping one for a 2078 did not work though. So, for what its worth, the nte236 has worked for me as a sub for a driver and final in the same radio. YMMV, and I 100% believe the OP, but just wanted to share a different outcome.

 

[vswr]

That's all good info but will a 2166 replace a 1969 or vice versa? Nevervtrusted anything by ecg or nte even in audio.

 

[AudioShockwav]

That's all good info but will a 2166 replace a 1969 or vice versa? Nevervtrusted anything by ecg or nte even in audio.

No
A 2sc2166 was commonly used as a driver transistor is SSB radios.
The 2sc1969 was commonly used as a final transistor often driven by the 2166.

73
Jeff

 

[vswr]

No
A 2sc2166 was commonly used as a driver transistor is SSB radios.
The 2sc1969 was commonly used as a final transistor often driven by the 2166.

73
Jeff

Thats good to know but oddly I pulled a good set of 2312's and a 1969 was driving them. From a Galaxy 99. I was going to try the known good set in a saturn that was cabbaged with Chinese fakes. What would replace a 2166?

 

[vswr]

Maybe a 1306? No NTE interest.