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Amplifiers and Airbags

Big Kahuna

Sr. Member
Jul 31, 2008
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2,076
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I once read a post where someone didn't recommend putting an amp under a passenger seat as there were lots of wires there related to the airbag sensor as well as a weight sensor for when to turn the airbag off when a child is in the seat. I heard two people mention this in DX the other day and it got me thinking.

I've seen some interesting RF problems over the years in cars - lights coming on or off, fans turning on, etc. but I've never heard of anyone ever causing airbag issues or triggering an airbag completely due to an amplifier in a vehicle.

Has anyone ever done this that you know of?

I think in most vehicles the largest amp you might fit under a seat would be a 4 pill 2290/2879/1446 in a more traditional heatsink type design rather than a specialty builder case which would be too bulky. I've thrown KL203's and 2 pills under seats in cars over the years without any issues.

Just interested to hear if anyone has any first hand knowledge of this issue.
 
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Put it under back seat.

Further, if you’ll read Applegate on the subject, you’ll see advocacy of trunk installation with remote battery to run the rig.

Getting the amp out of the passenger compartment is the solution.

.
 
There are several things to remember about airbags.

Any pulling of harnesses while the battery is still connected, they can trigger.

Large voltage swings can also trigger - affects calibration...

Poor ground and improper grounding can trigger...

Each one of the above - relies upon a "loop" there is a monitor inside the airbag module that sends out a calibrated trickle voltage to each live wire (usually Yellow or identified with Yellow as a stripe or line). A return wire goes back to the Module to a specific pin - this loop if broken will set a light on the dash and depending upon the severity - can set a more sensitive trigger method to compensate for the non-communicating one to at least protect the passengers even if not all airbags can deploy.

The Yellow wire can also emit an RF-ID pulse - which then makes the wire it's associated with, return an RF-ID "tag" due to the pulse, that the module processes as a means to set aspect of each "line" or loop - and what is attached to it - is.

The RF-ID tag strip is (if equipped) embedded in the Igniter assembly - the Igniter is a simple filament of thin wire between two electrodes - embedded in a mixture designed to amplify the heat and accelerates into a minor explosion (oxygenates) and since it's sealed in a close knit fabric, the rapidly expanding air fills the the volume of the bag - the expanding volume is enough to push into the container and itself having scored marks of thinner material can rip-break their seal and allow the bag to expand is a specific direction and speed.
  • The RF ID, is similar to those found in Retail, the "BUZZ-BRAAP" you hear during the sale, that's the Tag getting pulsed to emit and defeat - burn out - the tag It's the one that emits when RF of a specific frequency pulse - the Tag returns a ping to it. Small little strip that sits in the igniter assembly and touches the electrodes - and RF pings it and there is also a small RF Ferrite "Bead" to help "tune" the response output so the DC voltage doesn't overpower the Ping
Once you know that process, you also have to be aware that many thieves and small car lot dealers will sell vehicles as used even though they've been sold for scrap - because the insurance company wrote off the vehicle because; even with the Airbag deployment - the cost of replacement is too costly for the price of the vehicle.

So they use several methods to get past the "Air bag Light" on the dash, including defeating mimicking the loop sense "voltage drop" as well as using after market Air Bags with untried or untested - non verifiable - ignitions an inflators even from the Takata Air Bag shrapnel days.

There lies the problem - older Modules use the "loop sense" while others use RF-ID's on top of the physical loop - to monitor and verify the proper airbag is installed in the right loop.

This process is why certain aftermarket resellers will offer to reprogram a faulty or deployed now error'd out (bad) Air Bag Module - they erase the old RF-ID and initiate new defeated codes to rely on the older Loop process. They return it all for a flat fee.

Sounds like highway robbery - and in some cases it is. I am aware of dealers that will try to fix something only to have more problems show up later - including the Air bag light - and say something to the effect that because of the malfunction - it caused you to have this new problem - which now raises your estimates $$$$ much...

Was it your or their error - if you don't know where you're air bag connectors are, then no - it's not your fault, the air bag (banged up) wiring is a special loom in the harness - you'd have to be pretty abusive or darn smart to figure out how to make one of the connectors not work so it sets the light on the dash and all they have to do is resolder the wire back together.

Think this thru yet?

This is why RF ID is coming into play - and why RF in the vehicle can be a dangerous thing.

IF some jerk wanted to make your day, they can cut one of the loop wires to any Airbag - and you have your Dash light and some shops charge to have you review the their scanner data to find, diagnose reset and if possible locate the defective part(s) - quick Racket for that...

When you resolder some of these systems - the RF ID won't or cannot return back to the module - the wires' ability to return the signal is reduced - attenuated. The physical loop works - so you can clear a code for several drive cycles until the missing airbag ID-tag is showing "not there" and you'll get your light back on the dash.

The problem is with the integrity of the system, not necessarily the RF - the RF ID is one aspect, but a faulty or open sensor can also trigger events because your RF signal from the amp has swamped out the sensor and the module is seeing input that looks like a strike - causing deployment - or worse, NO deployment because the systems' integrity is compromised to a point that the module malfunctions.

Just so you know, if you've ever messed with "ESTES" rocketry kits, you have used igniters that are similar in construction and power just like the Airbags use - similar in both - low-battery voltage presence and boom - off she goes into the sky...So when in Rome...or in your car, you're not very far, from getting Vexed by the Man who Wears the $tar - to Fix your car.

I'm with @Slowmover on this, too many open leads and Mickey "D's" French fries, ketchup and Salty packets - It's a self immolating mess in between the seats...
 
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There are several things to remember about airbags.

Any pulling of harnesses while the battery is still connected, they can trigger.

Large voltage swings can also trigger - affects calibration...

Poor ground and improper grounding can trigger...

Each one of the above - relies upon a "loop" there is a monitor inside the airbag module that sends out a calibrated trickle voltage to each live wire (usually Yellow or identified with Yellow as a stripe or line). A return wire goes back to the Module to a specific pin - this loop if broken will set a light on the dash and depending upon the severity - can set a more sensitive trigger method to compensate for the non-communicating one to at least protect the passengers even if not all airbags can deploy.

The Yellow wire can also emit an RF-ID pulse - which then makes the wire it's associated with, return an RF-ID "tag" due to the pulse, that the module processes as a means to set aspect of each "line" or loop - and what is attached to it - is.

The RF-ID tag strip is (if equipped) embedded in the Igniter assembly - the Igniter is a simple filament of thin wire between two electrodes - embedded in a mixture designed to amplify the heat and accelerates into a minor explosion (oxygenates) and since it's sealed in a close knit fabric, the rapidly expanding air fills the the volume of the bag - the expanding volume is enough to push into the container and itself having scored marks of thinner material can rip-break their seal and allow the bag to expand is a specific direction and speed.
  • The RF ID, is similar to those found in Retail, the "BUZZ-BRAAP" you hear during the sale, that's the Tag getting pulsed to emit and defeat - burn out - the tag It's the one that emits when RF of a specific frequency pulse - the Tag returns a ping to it. Small little strip that sits in the igniter assembly and touches the electrodes - and RF pings it and there is also a small RF Ferrite "Bead" to help "tune" the response output so the DC voltage doesn't overpower the Ping
Once you know that process, you also have to be aware that many thieves and small car lot dealers will sell vehicles as used even though they've been sold for scrap - because the insurance company wrote off the vehicle because; even with the Airbag deployment - the cost of replacement is too costly for the price of the vehicle.

So they use several methods to get past the "Air bag Light" on the dash, including defeating mimicking the loop sense "voltage drop" as well as using after market Air Bags with untried or untested - non verifiable - ignitions an inflators even from the Takata Air Bag shrapnel days.

There lies the problem - older Modules use the "loop sense" while others use RF-ID's on top of the physical loop - to monitor and verify the proper airbag is installed in the right loop.

This process is why certain aftermarket resellers will offer to reprogram a faulty or deployed now error'd out (bad) Air Bag Module - they erase the old RF-ID and initiate new defeated codes to rely on the older Loop process. They return it all for a flat fee.

Sounds like highway robbery - and in some cases it is. I am aware of dealers that will try to fix something only to have more problems show up later - including the Air bag light - and say something to the effect that because of the malfunction - it caused you to have this new problem - which now raises your estimates $$$$ much...

Was it your or their error - if you don't know where you're air bag connectors are, then no - it's not your fault, the air bang wiring is a special loom in the harness - you'd have to be pretty abusive or darn smart to figure out how to make one of the connectors not work so it sets the light on the dash and all they have to do is resolder the wire back together.

Think this thru yet?

This is why RF ID is coming into play - and why RF in the vehicle can be a dangerous thing.

IF some jerk wanted to make your day, they can cut one of the loop wires to any Airbag - and you have your Dash light and some shops charge to have you review the their scanner data to find, diagnose reset and if possible locate the defective part(s) - quick Racket for that...

When you resolder some of these systems - the RF ID won't or cannot return back to the module - the wires' ability to return the signal is reduced - attenuated. The physical loop works - so you can clear a code for several drive cycles until the missing airbag ID-tag is showing "not there" and you'll get your light back on the dash.

The problem is with the integrity of the system, not necessarily the RF - the RF ID is one aspect, but a faulty or open sensor can also trigger events because your RF signal from the amp has swamped out the sensor and the module is seeing input that looks like a strike - causing deployment - or worse, NO deployment because the systems' integrity is compromised to a point that the module malfunctions.

Just so you know, if you've ever messed with "ESTES" rocketry kits, you have used igniters that are similar in construction and power just like the Airbags use - similar in both - low-battery voltage presence and boom - off she goes into the sky...So when in Rome...or in your car, you're not very far, from getting Vexed by the Man who Wears the $tar - to Fix your car.

I'm with @Slowmover on this, too many open leads and Mickey "D's" French fries, ketchup and Salty packets - It's a self immolating mess in between the seats...


Which makes the argument for greater coax RF attenuation a priority.

.
 
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Interesting reading Handy Andy, definitely makes the case that any install regardless of CB/Ham should be aware of possible RF issues effecting the Airbags. If they can in fact be triggered fairly easily I guess my question would be why don't we hear about cases more often with all the 4 to 8+ pill amps out there in use?

I'd still be interested to hear if anyone has a first/second hand account of this happening?
 
My crew cab pickup doesn’t have steer/dash airbags. No adaptive braking, either.

Puck mount (over starboard rear seat, in main) runs coax down C-pillar to amp under passenger rear seat, thence to radio across/along driveshaft tunnel to mount next to manual transmission shifter.

— Total 12’? Don’t know yet.

— Run might be described as as an S-shape where the ends are in different planes.

Power will come in from firewall and run through starboard door sill. 12V Distribution managed in proximity to amp.

-Haven’t decided how to run power forward. Maybe on port side of tunnel. (Non-existent OEM wiring in these locations).

The amount of EMF is gonna get high in extended key-down.

Treating every end of every type of run worked well for me in the big truck. And I haven’t heard of anyone setting off airbags or adaptive braking control.

That might be as result of the far larger confines. In cars (suv, pickup) I’ve heard of the latter, but not the former.

Still, while I’ve not investigated an overshield for coax and maybe power, that seems worthy for what/how I want to run a radio in a private vehicle. I’ll guess that braided, woven-copper or brass these lines could be run thru (grounded each end; each run) as the method.

I’d appreciate learning specifics.

.
 
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Interesting reading Handy Andy, definitely makes the case that any install regardless of CB/Ham should be aware of possible RF issues effecting the Airbags. If they can in fact be triggered fairly easily I guess my question would be why don't we hear about cases more often with all the 4 to 8+ pill amps out there in use?

I'd still be interested to hear if anyone has a first/second hand account of this happening?

Several discussions on QRZ in the mobile radio sub-forum. Air bag danger noted, but it was vehicles shutting down or emergency braking enactment that gets your attention.

Motorhomes (non-standardized manufacture) is the worst.

Cross-reference search with Applegate, k0bg, airbags
.
 
Several discussions on QRZ in the mobile radio sub-forum. Air bag danger noted, but it was vehicles shutting down or emergency braking enactment that gets your attention.

Motorhomes (non-standardized manufacture) is the worst.

Cross-reference search with Applegate, k0bg, airbags
.

A while back with a truck and some power I caused a computer problem that caused the truck to run rough (like a limp mode) until it was reset - then if I keyed up again it caused the problem again. I did some additional grounding and it solved the issue.

Still never have heard of anyone in CB ever mention an actual airbag deployment from power though.
 
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Never heard of that…yet!

With more and more electronic sensors and possibility multiple ECM's on todays vehicles, I would say anything is possible.

You already know what RFI can do to a vehicle, now amplify it and the problem multiplies!

Every time I get a new company truck, I'm always concerned about RFI issues I might have.

Good installs with good grounds, bonding and ferrite use where needed can help but is no guarantee for modern vehicles. I had one truck that no matter what I tried, I couldn't run the 20 meter band even at 5 watts would trip a fault code and shut the engine down.
 
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My work related issue (a repair) was from an accident - radio in for service...

Car was not a total loss but air bags deployed - we got to see the after-effects

Interesting reading Handy Andy, definitely makes the case that any install regardless of CB/Ham should be aware of possible RF issues effecting the Airbags. If they can in fact be triggered fairly easily I guess my question would be why don't we hear about cases more often with all the 4 to 8+ pill amps out there in use?

I'd still be interested to hear if anyone has a first/second hand account of this happening?

Ever take a look at many of those "installs"?

The kind of vehicle - they don't skimp on, or worry about, airbags, they have the money to fix that problem and if you review such vehicles, not many have airbags - they are the older basic equipped vehicles without a lot of accessories to drain the electrical system - eliminating these drains, either by themselves or thru purchase.

They don't use Tesla's.. or any sole - battery powered device for that reason.

Golf carts might be an exception - you just have to get it towed back to the stall at the course for them to recharge it (or your home if you're in a secluded covenant-cubbie)

In my personal work experience the work was not performed by me or the shop, the radio was purchased thru them - but not sure of the air bags caused the accident done by a Radio or was the driver distracted and hit something while attempting to use said radio ...

Anecdotal - but not fiction...

Was a "warranty this?" and the Boss handled it...

It's why I posted this some time ago, about "Menu driven radios" -

upload_2021-5-19_17-51-37.png

Considering that you keep asking the question - then I wonder if you are asking "Is there any truth to this?" then perhaps you could figure that; if no true direct evidence, it would be an Urban myth -

Then I will ask you this question...

Will you ever admit to the insurance company that what caused your accident was not your fault - but by your radio equipment - by keying it up, which caused a malfunction and then it (your vehicle) blasted an airbag off in your face, causing you to lose control of the vehicle and crashing it. (or even parked)
  • It's the injuries and potential liability for damages - is what I'm getting at...
When you can answer the above question truthfully and admit that you did this to yourself - by clause and for claim - and accept any and all damages, then you don't have to keep asking us. You'd have your own experience to share - or not.
  • Many learn from others mistakes, at least from the ones willing to admit their mistakes,
  • Some even learn by heeding advice of following instructions in the Owners Manual
  • unfortunately - a few refuse and wind up being hurt or removed - I'll leave it at that....
The rest of us are in a position to prevent this from happening in the first place, it is a responsibility to protect the privileges of driving, as a driver, not abuse them by installing equipment - neglecting to do it properly to cause a fault or liability thru recourse; we'd be in error if we start recommending people do it.

It's the privilege of being able to use your radio - versus the umbrella of failure to comply with rules about distracted driving, or thru a car manufacturer about the warranty or lack of coverage from it, due to poorly done, or neglected to follow instructions - install, that caused a far bigger problem.

You take your chances, not all probabilities are zero.
 
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never had issues with airbags under RF field, but I saw a few times engine stop in nearby car when radio was keyed. It was in traffic jam, but imagine this situation when driving on highway, disabling someone's car at 100Mph.
Mike
 
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never had issues with airbags under RF field, but I saw a few times engine stop in nearby car when radio was keyed. It was in traffic jam, but imagine this situation when driving on highway, disabling someone's car at 100Mph.
Mike

Any of you ride with me just ONE day (and acquire the visceral appreciation of MASS x FORCE of a 72’ 38T combination vehicle) will want my desired super-power:

The commuter who missed my front bumper by three feet to exit the highway past the exit lane stripes. Their trajectory was to bend around me — not away — from three lanes over:

Raise arm, and with Zeus-like projection, point towards them a thunderbolt their engine throws a rod through the block.

Aiming an antenna might be a little slow.

.
 
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Read around a little and see that EMI/RF shielding is a thing for aircraft using braided sleeve.

Any opinions (experience) this attenuates the problem in discussion? 12V + Coax?

Marry it to the shunt coil at antenna base?

Etc

.
 
Will you ever admit to the insurance company that what caused your accident was not your fault - but by your radio equipment - by keying it up, which caused a malfunction and then it (your vehicle) blasted an airbag off in your face, causing you to lose control of the vehicle and crashing it. (or even parked)

I'm sure I wouldn't mention it to the insurance company but I have a feeling I'd be telling you guys about it :)
 

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