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i was told magnetic mounting causes a %30 efficency loss

B

BOOTY MONSTER

Guest
my vehicle is a montero (suv) . i have a 10k on a magnetic mount on the roof centered over the front passenger area . i was wondering if anyone had went from magnetic mount to a grounded drilled and bolted to metal body mount on a 10k (or any other antenna that you just changed the mount on) and if you could tell any difference . im thinking about remounting it on the roof about a foot from the rear and centered on the roof (not on a rear corner) .will this make it a lil more directional twoards the front of the vehicle or a lot ? i know it will affect it some . ill be using a ball mount with 3 nuts-bolts-washers and a big metal washer with holes for the bolts and dual gaskets for water sealing .
thanks
 

BOOTY,
A 30% loss? Wonder where that figure came from. Some loss, sure, but 30%? Kind'a much, but maybe.

Will moving the antenna to the rear of the vehicle make it sort of directional? Sort of, but not a whole lot. Nothing like any sort of directional antenna.

The only thing you can really say for sure about a 'hard' mounted antenna versus a mag-mounted one is that it won't get knocked off as much. After that, it's more one of those 'depends' things. Depends on what you are trying to do or get out of it to start with. It's very easy to 'over-power' a mag-mounted antenna, so if you're running power then 'hard' mounting is more reliable. Other than that, I wouldn't expect huge amounts of difference. Some, maybe, but not 'huge'. Has to do with having a 'fixed' connection instead of a sort of 'variable' one.
- 'Doc
 
if that was true, does that mean that a fixed mount would have 43% efficiency gain over a mag mount?
 
I read somewhere on the net (an antenna company site), don't remember where, that a mag mount with a tuned antenna would lose maybe 5-10% at most. I was checking this out because I run a magmount on my Sunfire. If in fact there's that much lose,...I think I'd have to come up with a new plan. :)
 
The gain/loss in efficiency because of how an antenna is mounted, hard-mount/mag-mount, is use dependent.
For instance;
If using a hand-held radio and a mag-mount, and if the mag-mounted antenna is knocked from the vehicle, taking the hand-held radio with it, then there is a 100% loss of efficiency, which could debatively be said not possible with a hard mounted antenna. Which correspondingly says that a hard mounted antenna has 100% efficiency over a mag-mounted antenna.

On the other hand;
If one mobile is sitting next to another mobile, one having a mag-mount antenna, the other having a hard-mounted antenna, and it is too cold to roll the windows down to speak with each other so that they use their radios instead. Exactly the same radio set up in each case. There is likely to be absolutely no discernible difference if signals are compared. Which can actually mean one of two things; efficiency of mag-mounted antennas are the same as for hard-mounted antennas, or, it must be awful damned cold where ever they were.
.
.
.
Where are these 'efficiency' figures coming from, I'd really like to know how they are arrived at, and why? I'm sure that at either end of the 'extremes' there are some losses. But 30%, or any 'double-digit' figure? Ummmm. Sort of doubt that. Then again, just depends on what you're comparing the mag-mount antenna to, huh?
- 'Doc
 
he's talking about one antenna, mounting to the vehicle vs. mounting using a magnetic mount........the key issue here is ground losses and in most instances running a wire from the magnet to vehicle ground is no answer. the vehicle is not a ground plane for the lower frequencies, but rather a capacitor to ground, especially when monopole antennas are operating at frequencies low enough that the vehicle body doesn't provide anywhere near 1/4 wavelength of body metal in most or all directions from the antenna mounting location to the boundaries of the vehicle proper. the vehicle body becomes one plate of the capacitor and earth ground the other plate with whatever in between acting as the dielectric. ground loss can be minimized by proper grounding (bonding) all bolted-on parts including doors, hoods, trunks, tail and exhaust pipes, bumpers, etc. mounting the antenna as high as possible on the vehicle also helps as this reduces the coupling to ground (as in loading coils on short shafts, we want the vehicle coupled to ground, not the antenna). avoid using bumper mounts, magnet mounts, trunk lip mounts, and similar devices.

n just about every case, an HF mobile antenna will have an input impedance of less than 50 ohms, and typically between 12 and 35 ohms. obviously if we wish to obtain a low VSWR, we need to match our 50 coax feed to the antenna. there are several ways to do this, but the easiest is to use a 4:1 unun.

unun stands for unbalanced to unbalanced, as opposed to balun, which is balanced to unbalanced. on one side we have our 50 ohm input, and on the other a 12.5 ohm output. by tapping 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 of the way along the top winding, 1.5:1, 2:1, and 3:1 ratios can be obtained. Or, 33 ohms, 25 ohms, and 16 ohms. In all but the extreme cases, one of these taps will closely match just about any mobile antenna.

there are other issues to consider in magnetic mounted antenna scenarios including the fact that if it flies off the vehicle and causes damage to any person or property this liability is not covered under most auto insurance policies. in addition, if you're still going to insist on using magnetic mounts then know this. the amount of pull exerted by the magnets upon the surface they are mounted to is directly proportional to the thickness of the metal they are attached to, so if you don't want them flying off of the vehicle you might want to reinforce the roof area where they will be attached with some additional plate so that those suckers stick as well as they do when you see them on the displays in most retailers where they are sold.

when the ground losses from the magnet mount and the lower coil loaded type antennas are added together efficiency can suffer as much as 15 - 30% and that just might be a conservative figure. whether on a magnet mount or attached to the vehicle we have already seen first hand here in this forum the results of using extended shafts under these types of antennas to increase usable range and the benefits obtained are indisputable. when the current loop created by the inductor or coil is elevated high enough so that coupling between the antenna and the vehicle is minimized the antennas simply perform much better. the use of top loaded antennas virtually eliminates a large portion of the ground loss associated with antenna coupling to the vehicle as does using the extended shafts with the open air coil loaded designs on the shortened shafts.

bond the vehicle components mentiioned above properly to tighten the coupling between the vehicle body and earth ground and decouple the antenna from the vehicle body. that will reduce ground loss and increase antenna radiation efficiency.

balance these factors for best compromise between performance and convenience.
 
freecell said:
he's talking about one antenna, mounting to the vehicle vs. mounting using a magnetic mount........the key issue here is ground losses and in most instances running a wire from the magnet to vehicle ground is no answer. the vehicle is not a ground plane for the lower frequencies, but rather a capacitor to ground, especially when monopole antennas are operating at frequencies low enough that the vehicle body doesn't provide anywhere near 1/4 wavelength of body metal in most or all directions from the antenna mounting location to the boundaries of the vehicle proper. the vehicle body becomes one plate of the capacitor and earth ground the other plate with whatever in between acting as the dielectric. ground loss can be minimized by proper grounding (bonding) all bolted-on parts including doors, hoods, trunks, tail and exhaust pipes, bumpers, etc. mounting the antenna as high as possible on the vehicle also helps as this reduces the coupling to ground (as in loading coils on short shafts, we want the vehicle coupled to ground, not the antenna). avoid using bumper mounts, magnet mounts, trunk lip mounts, and similar devices.

n just about every case, an HF mobile antenna will have an input impedance of less than 50 ohms, and typically between 12 and 35 ohms. obviously if we wish to obtain a low VSWR, we need to match our 50 coax feed to the antenna. there are several ways to do this, but the easiest is to use a 4:1 unun.

unun stands for unbalanced to unbalanced, as opposed to balun, which is balanced to unbalanced. on one side we have our 50 ohm input, and on the other a 12.5 ohm output. by tapping 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 of the way along the top winding, 1.5:1, 2:1, and 3:1 ratios can be obtained. Or, 33 ohms, 25 ohms, and 16 ohms. In all but the extreme cases, one of these taps will closely match just about any mobile antenna.

there are other issues to consider in magnetic mounted antenna scenarios including the fact that if it flies off the vehicle and causes damage to any person or property this liability is not covered under most auto insurance policies. in addition, if you're still going to insist on using magnetic mounts then know this. the amount of pull exerted by the magnets upon the surface they are mounted to is directly proportional to the thickness of the metal they are attached to, so if you don't want them flying off of the vehicle you might want to reinforce the roof area where they will be attached with some additional plate so that those suckers stick as well as they do when you see them on the displays in most retailers where they are sold.

when the ground losses from the magnet mount and the lower coil loaded type antennas are added together efficiency can suffer as much as 15 - 30% and that just might be a conservative figure. whether on a magnet mount or attached to the vehicle we have already seen first hand here in this forum the results of using extended shafts under these types of antennas to increase usable range and the benefits obtained are indisputable. when the current loop created by the inductor or coil is elevated high enough so that coupling between the antenna and the vehicle is minimized the antennas simply perform much better. the use of top loaded antennas virtually eliminates a large portion of the ground loss associated with antenna coupling to the vehicle as does using the extended shafts with the open air coil loaded designs on the shortened shafts.

bond the vehicle components mentiioned above properly to tighten the coupling between the vehicle body and earth ground and decouple the antenna from the vehicle body. that will reduce ground loss and increase antenna radiation efficiency.

balance these factors for best compromise between performance and convenience.
wow i had to take a break reading all that. i call it the laws of
cb antennas .states that a center load antenna will do better than a base antenna and a top loaded antenna will bo better than a center loaded antenna.i personally dont believe all that
cause in 15yrs ive been in radio ive had all3 types
top
center
base
all wilsons however anfd ill tell ya this theres no way the
wilson silverload did better than my trusty mag mount 5k.
however i did have a slightly better swr with the centerload
5k trucker than i did with the mag.mount 5k.so im not nessarily
disagreeing ewith ya.but these are the test results ive composed over the span of 15yrs
 
hotrod said:
freecell said:
he's talking about one antenna, mounting to the vehicle vs. mounting using a magnetic mount........the key issue here is ground losses and in most instances running a wire from the magnet to vehicle ground is no answer. the vehicle is not a ground plane for the lower frequencies, but rather a capacitor to ground, especially when monopole antennas are operating at frequencies low enough that the vehicle body doesn't provide anywhere near 1/4 wavelength of body metal in most or all directions from the antenna mounting location to the boundaries of the vehicle proper. the vehicle body becomes one plate of the capacitor and earth ground the other plate with whatever in between acting as the dielectric. ground loss can be minimized by proper grounding (bonding) all bolted-on parts including doors, hoods, trunks, tail and exhaust pipes, bumpers, etc. mounting the antenna as high as possible on the vehicle also helps as this reduces the coupling to ground (as in loading coils on short shafts, we want the vehicle coupled to ground, not the antenna). avoid using bumper mounts, magnet mounts, trunk lip mounts, and similar devices.

n just about every case, an HF mobile antenna will have an input impedance of less than 50 ohms, and typically between 12 and 35 ohms. obviously if we wish to obtain a low VSWR, we need to match our 50 coax feed to the antenna. there are several ways to do this, but the easiest is to use a 4:1 unun.

unun stands for unbalanced to unbalanced, as opposed to balun, which is balanced to unbalanced. on one side we have our 50 ohm input, and on the other a 12.5 ohm output. by tapping 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 of the way along the top winding, 1.5:1, 2:1, and 3:1 ratios can be obtained. Or, 33 ohms, 25 ohms, and 16 ohms. In all but the extreme cases, one of these taps will closely match just about any mobile antenna.

there are other issues to consider in magnetic mounted antenna scenarios including the fact that if it flies off the vehicle and causes damage to any person or property this liability is not covered under most auto insurance policies. in addition, if you're still going to insist on using magnetic mounts then know this. the amount of pull exerted by the magnets upon the surface they are mounted to is directly proportional to the thickness of the metal they are attached to, so if you don't want them flying off of the vehicle you might want to reinforce the roof area where they will be attached with some additional plate so that those suckers stick as well as they do when you see them on the displays in most retailers where they are sold.

when the ground losses from the magnet mount and the lower coil loaded type antennas are added together efficiency can suffer as much as 15 - 30% and that just might be a conservative figure. whether on a magnet mount or attached to the vehicle we have already seen first hand here in this forum the results of using extended shafts under these types of antennas to increase usable range and the benefits obtained are indisputable. when the current loop created by the inductor or coil is elevated high enough so that coupling between the antenna and the vehicle is minimized the antennas simply perform much better. the use of top loaded antennas virtually eliminates a large portion of the ground loss associated with antenna coupling to the vehicle as does using the extended shafts with the open air coil loaded designs on the shortened shafts.

bond the vehicle components mentiioned above properly to tighten the coupling between the vehicle body and earth ground and decouple the antenna from the vehicle body. that will reduce ground loss and increase antenna radiation efficiency.

balance these factors for best compromise between performance and convenience.
wow i had to take a break reading all that. i call it the laws of
cb antennas .states that a center load antenna will do better than a base antenna and a top loaded antenna will bo better than a center loaded antenna.i personally dont believe all that
cause in 15yrs ive been in radio ive had all3 types
top
center
base
all wilsons however anfd ill tell ya this theres no way the
wilson silverload did better than my trusty mag mount 5k.
however i did have a slightly better swr with the centerload
5k trucker than i did with the mag.mount 5k.so im not nessarily
disagreeing ewith ya.but these are the test results ive composed over the span of 15yrs
almost forgot if it works well for ya good swrs and all leave it be
only thing id do is mount it directly deadcenter on roof.that provides best ground plane effect.in most cases right under the dome light is dead center but not always
 
unless you performed the testing on all three antennas on the same vehicle in the same mounting location using the same mounting method under basically the same conditions then all we are left with is your perception. without the details the results are meaningless for any measure of quantitative analysis and doesn't necessarily provide any rebuttal of the "laws of cb antennas" as you refer to them.

one last bit of information... a VSWR bridge cannot measure phase angle, and therefore cannot be used to determine the actual resonant point of any antenna other than a purely resistive one, and that just doesn't happen very often, especially with mobile antennas. what it does measure is the (lowest) voltage, and because an antenna has reactance, the voltage and current are not in-phase. without a good noise bridge or antenna analyzer, it is mostly guesswork. in short and for these reasons you can't rely on a VSWR bridge alone to adjust your mobile antenna. i've seen a lot of antenna installations where the resistive losses alone were enough to provide a match to 50 ohm feedline according to an swr meter. in terms of radiation efficiency the swr indication alone in many instances is meaningless.
 
and still no answer about where that "30%" loss thingy comes from. Lots of obfuscation, but no fact, or even a half way reasonable conclusion.
- 'Doc
 
freecell whats happening when we see a notable increase in signal at say 20 miles when we increase the surface area of magnet/magnets and decrease the thickness of the dielectric/rubber boot,
i put it down to no more than increased capacitive coupling and was surprised how much difference there is between a single 6" mag and 4x7" mags,

also you say grounding the magnets does not always improve the situation?
i cannot drill a mount in the roof and would never mount my antenna anywhere else but the roof,
they have always worked better up there and i cant figure how some get anywhere close by trunk mounting in a mobile setup because it never worked well for me,
unless somebody could demonstrate that trunk mounting could = roof center i would always feel like a one legged man in an ass kicking contest if i mounted anywhere else but the roof,
so its a tri/quad mag setup unfortunately.
are you telling me that a short braid from the ground centerbolt to the roof say 2-3" wont help at all?

my car is unitary construction all panels are welded, bonnet and boot grounded at both sides but the doors do not have a decent rf connection.
 
Bob,
Mag-mounts do work because of capacitive coupling, you got that right. So how do you increase that capacitive coupling? Same way you would for any capacitive coupling, increase the size of the capacitor. The two ways of doing that are to increase the area of the capacitor, or reduce the thickness of the dielectric (no surprise there, right?). Or, do away with the capacitive coupling and furnish a 'hard' connection to the 'other half' of the antenna. If you're gonna do that grounding, why not just hard-mount the antenna? Same hole, just putting something else into it instead of a strap/wire/whatever.
Depending on the situation, hard mounting may not be as attractive as some type of capacitive coupling. Which does not say that the capacitive coupling method is best, just more attractive.
- 'Doc


As far as the roof mounting being 'better' than trunk mounting, guess that just depends on what you can 'live' with best. A symmetrical radiation pattern, or one slightly asymmetrical. If you use a "tree whacking" antenna, I think I'd go for the trunk hard mount. Or 'boot' hard mount? I've never had too may problems about drilling holes in vehicles. Then again, haven't owned many 'Rolls' or 'Jags' either...
 
two instances or reasons for the presence of ground losses have already been given. i'm not repeating myself. booty monster wasn't told that using a magnet would create a 30% loss in efficiency, what he was told is that using magnet type mounts could result in a 15 - 30% decrease in efficiency. the range allows for the number of magnets and surface area covered by the magnets with overall efficiency being inversely proportional to the number and size of the magnets used. i know because i'm the one who told him.
 
doc i dont have a problem drilling as its an old car, the reason i cannot use a regular mount is the factory sunroof is double skinned and would be rendered useless if i went direct mount,
i may be able to use a cheap stud mount from a magnetic mount and just cut the lining and a hole in the second skin to gain access to clean the metal and fit a support, i will look at it again ;)
 
freecell,
Still doesn't explain why anyone should expect a 30% loss because they use a mag-mount. Lots of things ~can~ cause that much loss, which certainly doesn't mean that they ~will~. Lots of unnecessary worrying about nothing.
- 'Doc
 

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