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Need help figuring out design methodology for 4-1000A PP linear

KK6FVT

Member
Aug 2, 2013
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www.homebrewprocessors.net
Hey everyone,

Well, let me put this project into a bit of perspective, because if I blurt out what I want to do, I WILL be called crazy. Keep in mind, you'll probably call me that anyway, but at least you know what you're dealing with.

Basically, I'm on the high side of 20 years old, and since even before getting my license, I've wanted to build a 4-1000A linear amplifier, due to a multitude of reasons - namely, the fact that such an amplifier is so difficult to design if I could do it would prove de facto to myself that I know a thing or two. Over time, it became a way, to do just that - to prove my skills to myself.

Also, one need not discount the wonder of it all. Gigantic, 9x5" tube that glows like a lightbulb and can produce those enormous power levels. For someone who is young (and a kid in many ways, notwithstanding), such a tube piqued my interest very early on, and I've run through many articles, many drawings, and many thoughts of how I would do it as soon as I had the resources. You can boil it down to a little bit of the youthful mentality of "bigger the tube, bigger the glory".

Past few days, I've begun wondering about the idea of building a two-tube PP amp and running it at reduced power to stay under legal limit and stay well below the maximum ratings of 4.2kW at ~5kV. Considering most HF transceivers I've seen have around 100W finals at full power, this would be more than achievable.

Before I go on with what questions I have, keep a few things in mind:

1) The idea of building a PP linear at this point is just a bunch of musings. If it finally sets on me that it's a ridiculous amount of power or if I find that the construction isn't practical/feasible, I won't let it leave the pen-and-paper stage.

2) Building a 4-1000A amp at all is still a ways off for me - I'm a college student, and that kind of money doesn't like being in my wallet.

Alright, now for the questions.

I've designed many a push-pull, but only in the audio realm. I know the topology of the tubes well enough, but only up to the point of the output. Obviously, these devices have to be put through impedance tuning, and to the extent of my knowledge the standard matching networks aren't designed to be balanced as is the direct output of a PP pair. I've thought of using a balun rated for 5kW max, but the only ones I've found are for antenna use and designed to accept 50 ohm coax. Ideally, the length aspect will be minimal - would this work - taking the tube pair and converting it to an unbalanced topology for the matching network - or would the 50-ohm normalization of the balun interacting with the high-impedance final output cause back-reflection enough to fry the tubes?

Also, I had interest in building a custom bucking regulator to develop the filament power (7.5V @ 21A per tube). Most designs I see use a centre-tapped transformer with the tap grounded to provide a reference. Would a bucking regulator arrangement with the negative leg grounded function similarly?

I have design experience in high-power buck/boost design, just not the use of those systems for RF systems. It should be noted that I would shield the main circuit to prevent against stray RFI interactions.

I'm sure more questions will come up later, if any of you can be bothered to help a kid with an absurd dream project I'd love to talk more.

73,
Eli KK6FVT
 

4-1000 AMP??

Using the Big bottles :whistle:

How do you plan on feeding this bottle?

GG, Grid modulated? Plate modulated?

What class? AB2, C?

all of this has to be taken into consideration.
also what frequency are you looking to use this 4X1 on?

google is a great tool and much info is out there for the 4x1 amps.

I have built one, I have seen it take off into parasitic oscillations and literally blow the plate and grid meters apart. That big bottle is hard to tame with a lot of B+ on top of it.

I then rebuilt it. Worked great 20 meters down to 80 meters.

5.7 KV on top of that big bottle with 1.5 amp plate PS, hard to keep it under the legal limit.

I got a good buy on a 3-1000Z, dropped the plate volts to 4.5 KV now I can use the amp 10 through 80 meters, 50 watts of drive gives me full legal limit all bands.

There are better tubes to use in PP applications than that old tetrode.

On the other hand if you get it working, sure will put out the power.

Site on the net named AMFONE take a look there for some ideas for that amp.

Good luck and be careful.
 
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I can't imagine a pair of 4-1000's in PP being operated at the legal limit. That's like buying a Bugatti Veyron and never breaking the speed limit.Reminds me of the guy with the 4CX5000A on 80m because he wanted the headroom and not worry about being off resonance a little bit. It really is a beast to tame as Waverider said. A pair of 3-500ZG's is a far better choice for legal limit operation. Cheaper too.
 
4-1000 AMP??

Using the Big bottles :whistle:

How do you plan on feeding this bottle?

GG, Grid modulated? Plate modulated?

What class? AB2, C?

all of this has to be taken into consideration.
also what frequency are you looking to use this 4X1 on?

google is a great tool and much info is out there for the 4x1 amps.

I have built one, I have seen it take off into parasitic oscillations and literally blow the plate and grid meters apart. That big bottle is hard to tame with a lot of B+ on top of it.

I then rebuilt it. Worked great 20 meters down to 80 meters.

5.7 KV on top of that big bottle with 1.5 amp plate PS, hard to keep it under the legal limit.

I got a good buy on a 3-1000Z, dropped the plate volts to 4.5 KV now I can use the amp 10 through 80 meters, 50 watts of drive gives me full legal limit all bands.

There are better tubes to use in PP applications than that old tetrode.

On the other hand if you get it working, sure will put out the power.

Site on the net named AMFONE take a look there for some ideas for that amp.

Good luck and be careful.

Ideally I'd be looking at those bands - 10-80m. I've seen builds allowing for 160m, but it takes even more consideration that I'd rather not make at this point.

From the datasheet, it prescribes that running AB2 a pair requires 11W of drive power to produce 3.8kW @ 5kV. Legal limit power, if you like QRP transceivers, I suppose. Input attenuation is a must if I'm going to be running AB2.

What do you think the drive considerations would be like running two parallel in GG?

About what you said in regards to the parasitic oscillations - exactly; and that's one of the things that drew me to this tube - how hard it is to get running well. I like the design challenge.

If I'm going to build a single-tube (probably grid-driven) design, I've made up my mind (in youthful buttheadedness, nonetheless) that I want to actually design it myself. For me, building something has a sense of pride that I'll only get if I go from 0 to final product by myself (help excluded). Copying a schematic off the internet wouldn't cut it for me. Hopefully that makes some sense.

Well, little bit discouraged now that I check the datasheet again (haha...misread it the first time).

Actually, scratch that, damn, I'm confused - when I read that it requires 11W, I was reading the audio amplifier section (yeah, I'm really trying that one...design it like that, and you'll see literal dirt coming out my antenna) - the 'sheet only gives a frame of reference at 110MHz, but says running 5.3kV (my target range for the B+) requires 400W input drive to develop the 4.2kW.

What confused me is that it just generically specifies "push-pull", not stating what class of PP it is.

I'd venture to say there's hope (eh), but here's the datasheet, give me a second opinion if you will.

Eli KK6FVT
 
I can't imagine a pair of 4-1000's in PP being operated at the legal limit. That's like buying a Bugatti Veyron and never breaking the speed limit.Reminds me of the guy with the 4CX5000A on 80m because he wanted the headroom and not worry about being off resonance a little bit. It really is a beast to tame as Waverider said. A pair of 3-500ZG's is a far better choice for legal limit operation. Cheaper too.

Couldn't be worse than this. 15kW linear over a bet on a case of beer.

That being said, you're right. By all means, I could have picked a far easier tube, run at a far better voltage (5kV isn't anyone's idea of fun). I can't think of any way to provide specific justification for why I picked the exact tube I did, or the layout I did, but I wouldn't be me if I wasn't pushing the envelope in some way.

And as I said in the first post, if there is no way to feasibly bring it under LL as a PP pair, I won't build it. I don't intend to use a 5kW-capable amplifier for evil.
 
Couldn't be worse than this. 15kW linear over a bet on a case of beer.

That being said, you're right. By all means, I could have picked a far easier tube, run at a far better voltage (5kV isn't anyone's idea of fun). I can't think of any way to provide specific justification for why I picked the exact tube I did, or the layout I did, but I wouldn't be me if I wasn't pushing the envelope in some way.

And as I said in the first post, if there is no way to feasibly bring it under LL as a PP pair, I won't build it. I don't intend to use a 5kW-capable amplifier for evil.

If you've ever tried Bitburger, you know those guys had to be crazy. :laugh:

73,
Brett
 
Progress Report/ My 4-1000a Amp

CK: I have started my build of a single 4-1000a at approx 5kv B+...
Zero Bias tube to 3+kv by most standards...(Bill Orr and others)
BUT I am going to be higher than that....I am not sure the 50K 10w resistor used by him and others (BTI amps did this also) will be adequate to the task at 5KV...
You or Warren have any suggests?
I am about ready to "flip" the deck over and start to assemble the tank circuit and need to figure out where I shouuld go with the bias settings. I am not sure I like the "string diode type" of set-up...switching sections in/out to control the idle current depending on class
40ma for class C(cw) or approx 140ma for class AB1....
So a little help is needed....

I already have mounted the new filament transformer. The 12vdc control transformer/bridge is installed.
The Fan control and filament voltage relay is installed and working.
Input circuitry installed(used the 3-1000 setup from the BTI)...
Relay to switch bias and vaccum T/R relay installed and trigger cicuit (VOX) working...
BLAH blah...So it's moving, just at a point where the bias needs addressing.
I have a NEW model "86" custom "shorting type" band switch...Tank coils from a B&W 850A plus Load and Tune caps from the BTI RF-2000 amp.
So close but yet so far...
73
All the Best
Gary
 
BJ, use a small zener diode across the base - collector junction of a large NPN transistor for your bias. This allows the transistor to act as a large current buffer for the small zener with the shunt regulator output across the collector - emitter junction. To adapt the circuit for multiple bias levels, keep the highest voltage zener connected to the transistor at all times and parallel the lower voltage zener in for AB1. You could also use an adjustable 3 terminal shunt regulator to drive the transistor much like "The Triode Board" does.

KK6FVT, While CK points out the PP circuit cancels even order harmonics this would be a very difficult build to cover 10 through 80 and will complicate your ability to drive an unbalanced antenna. Designing an all band PP output and getting the input right for all the bands is more than I would recommend since the benefit is minimal and the extra work is a lot.

If legal limit is your goal consider running a single tube in GG configuration and perhaps using less than the 5 KV on the anode. Ground the grids through the shortest low inductance path as possible. Pay attention to layout so that the 10 meter tank coil tap will have the short path it needs between the plate and load caps. Use a parasitic suppressor on the plate. Install a glitch resistor larger than normal for initial testing in case it goes into oscillation. Place diodes across the back of your meters so a fault does not take them out too.
 
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Hi Gary. Shockwave pretty much said what I would have had I caught this earlier. Damn night shifts get in the way of everything. :cry: The use of a zener and shunt regulator is better than a diode string for sure and an adjustable regular is even better. Myself I would not run that tube at 5 Kv, it just gets too unstable and 10m may be a bitch to tame it on.

Shockwave......BJ is planning on just running a single tube. The original poster KK6FVT was the one planning on a pair in PP service.
 
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