• You can now help support WorldwideDX when you shop on Amazon at no additional cost to you! Simply follow this Shop on Amazon link first and a portion of any purchase is sent to WorldwideDX to help with site costs.

One of "my kind" of questions......

guitar_199

Sr. Member
Mar 8, 2011
909
1,179
153
Deer Park, TX
Things seem a little slow..... so I thought it would be a good time for some education........

I have NEVER had an amp hooked up to a radio. Not any kind.... not any band..... so I have absolutely NO IDEA how you hook them up and adjust things!

1) Assuming you have to cable the radio to the amp..... WHERE do you put an SWR meter ? After the amp? Or between the radio and the amp?

2) IF you put the SWR meter behind the amp.... do you check/adjust SWR with the amp OFF or ON????

I ASSUME that at SOME point you HAVE to tune the ANTENNA to the AMP........BUT....maybe NOT ....IF the LP filter on the amp is properly tuned to begin with.

Anyway, I just got to wondering and thought I would ask...... for a friend OF COURSE!!!!! ;)
 

Radio > Coax > Amp > Coax > Meter > Coax > Antenna

SWR meter will work with amp off or amp on. First check with just radio, then turn on amp and key and recalibrate and check SWR with amp on. You can also check SWR at amp max PEP by using a solid tone into the mic, calibrating and checking just to make sure SWR isn't going up at peak output (sometimes faulty coax or antenna connections can cause swr to be higher with amp on or at higher power levels).

Ideally a good antenna with a low SWR and good coax it shouldn't matter if it's 4W or 500W.

You don't tune amp to antenna or antenna to amp - you simply tune antenna for lowest SWR and you can swap amps inline etc. and nothing should change.
 
"my friend" :) Is actually thinking of base.... but building one.

Lou Franklin offers some interesting plans on his site for building one and that sounds interesting.

And THAT is the only reason that I mentioned "tuning the low pass filter on the amp" in my original post. When you BUY one ready to go.... one might assume that the LP filter is properly tuned for a 50 ohm match. When it is a build...... the BUILDER is going to have to be sure that is tuned at least ONCE.

SWR shouldn’t change with best possible mobile install. Just don’t bet on it. May take more work on vehicle to get best results.

You contemplating Base or Mobile?


.
 
When you BUY one ready to go.... one might assume that the LP filter is properly tuned for a 50 ohm match.

Typically(*) a Low Pass Filter is not included in any "CB" type amp. (TexasStar, Fatboy, Davemade, X-Force, DonkeyStomper, SkullCracka, Bullethead or whatever)

A multi-band Amateur amp-Yes.


When it is a build

*-Exception to the above.
1- I haven't seen Lou's plans for an amp but it would not surprise me if his plans did include a Low Pass filter.
2- Hygain tube amps (think 1970's) did include a Low Pass Filter in most of their models.


You should at first install and occasionally (occasionally because things change with heat, amp draw etc) check the match (SWR) between the driver (radio) and the amplifier.
To do so, wire up this way;
Radio--->Coax--->SWR Meter--->Amplifier--->Coax--->Dummy Load(not antenna!)
Should be low with amplifier on or off.

If the amp is well built this should work without further fiddling. If not you need to change components to get as low an input tune (50 ohms) as possible.

Your radio will appreciate as low of an SWR as possible.Others on the band you are using will appreciate a well matched radio-to-amp as the harmonic content of your transmission is narrowed.

Good Luck. (to your Friend of course!)

73
David
 
The SWR being reflect power will not change with the power output tuning of a radio or amplifier. It just measures the input tuning of an antenna or an amplifier. It took me a long time to wrap my head around this.

The tune and load controls on an amplifier are for impedance matching to it's load being the antenna. This matching allows the amplifier to transfer maximum power to the antenna. If the antenna swr is high, then the antenna needs to be tuned or the coax is bad or has a bad connection and may only be a problem at high power.

There should be some good links to reference about this, I will see if I can dig some up.

Chris
 
I'm only going to add,..

Using any premade amp - you have two things to worry about - both are reciprocal - meaning they can be inverted - they are the baluns - matching the impedance of one section - to another.

Unfortunately the Amplifier Input and Output impedances are not the same - they cannot be inverted.

The input is one known set of values (Input admittance)

upload_2021-4-22_19-32-34.png

- the output is another set of values (Output admittance - see explanation)

upload_2021-4-22_19-35-0.png

- all based upon a Bias and working range of input (Class of Operation)...

To simply expect the inputs and outputs to be "matched impedance of 50 ohms" to their ends to the environment and properly matched to the working level at the ends where the amplifier is doing it's job - requires some complex understanding of how systems can amplify and TRANSFORM their output result into a power that can be used.​

It's not as simple as Balun down the input (thinking it's originally 50 ohms) - and then amplify the signal - then Balun up the output - from the impedance the amplifier is idealized for - into the 50 ohms we think the amp originally balun'd to meet the input of that amplifier stage as the output.
  • Think about that for a moment - before processing the threaded notions of amplifiers working in-line as amplifiers and not something else.
The Low-pass filter - like any other accessory - IS NOT SUPPOSED to be the matching 50 ohm balun the amp designer didn't fix, repair or properly incorporate into the design - in the design and tuning of the amplifier. It is simply used for a Filter - if it is used to help the transformation - then you have another problem - the amplifiers output is not properly set to 50 ohms - and because of this - SWR reflections DO occur. The output cannot be made balanced - it is an unbalanced output at a known impedance - to use the low-pass as a means to fix the 50 ohms, then realize that you have to design a matching network - a Balun to fix this as well as then apply a low-pass filter - you will need to know what the unknown realm of values that "Balun-ized" low-pass filter will need to fix.

upload_2021-4-22_19-9-28.png

In a typical CB output, you have the Final - into a Tank circuit (Transformation) - then into a multi-stage PI filter that not only filters but then also TERMINATES (acceptance/absorption then dissapation) of power not used

- you might recognize this as what a Balun would do
  • - only thru it's winds as a ratio
  • - the CB does thru this complex network matching scheme of coils and caps.
  • You really can't call a CB Output Network a Balun for the Tank Circuit is supposed to provide the coupling and transfer
    • - but to make it appear as 50 ohms for a given range of frequencies
    • - it's why they use the values they do in circuits like this
      • - to make the circuit appear as 50 ohms to that which it was designed for
      • - to pass CB frequencies - not much else.

Funny, you look at the filter - take it apart and... Gosh Darn It, it looks a lot like what that (Insert favorite Radio Brand Here or) Cobra has inside of it ...
  • Low-PASSFilterTV1000.JPG
The CB's Filter is this same process in multiple stages designed to look as a 50 ohm unbalanced load from one of it's sections into the other - the only changes in the winds and capacitance are for the variables of frequency that are not part of it's pass band. It's designed to appear as a 50 ohm to both the Final and the Antenna's System (Includes Coax, connectors antenna mount) as long as everything is 50 ohms, your sitting pretty in the rocking chair watching the world go by.

The frequencies it is designed to pass, get thru - back and forth - the other stuff shouldn't - or at least not a enough of it to make the others complain.
  • Sidebar for a moment: This is why there are wars that erupt over the SELECTION of a transistor over another because of power delivery seems to favor one type of part over another.
  • Why?
    • Many factors including the amount of LOSS in power the Transformation (Balun) does to the complex output (Conjugate) of one part REQUIRES over another (one fits the circuit better than another) at least not without a lot of retuning or offsetting a power coupling complex impedance problem.
When you have to use a Low-pass filter as the means to fix an SWR problem - sometimes it works, but for nearly every time - it's a gamble on how well or how bad - the filter can present itself to the system and yet work as a 50 ohms pass thru without attenuating the signals you're trying to amplify, let alone receive.

It a h*ll of a lot more complex than this, but I'm only trying to tell you to look out for those Icebergs - they are only the tip of a much bigger mess underneath.
 

dxChat
Help Users
  • No one is chatting at the moment.
  • @ Wildcat27:
    Hello I have a old school 2950 receives great on all modes and transmits great on AM but no transmit on SSB. Does anyone have any idea?
  • @ ButtFuzz:
    Good evening from Sunny Salem! What’s shaking?
  • dxBot:
    63Sprint has left the room.
  • dxBot:
    kennyjames 0151 has left the room.