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Why are kenwood,icom and yaesu radios not illegal

",so for me rules mean sh!t.[/QUOTE]"

And there in those 6 little words is the root too all of mans problems!

PS: You got caught breaking the law. It was a long time ago. Get over it!
 
",so for me rules mean sh!t.
"

And there in those 6 little words is the root too all of mans problems!

PS: You got caught breaking the law. It was a long time ago. Get over it![/QUOTE]


That's what is wrong with society in general today and not just as it relates to radio operations. All too often people get hell bent on breaking rules they don't agree with instead of trying to change them. They also look for someone else to blame when they get caught breaking those rules. It's all about taking responsibility for one's own actions and having respect for others.
 
"

And there in those 6 little words is the root too all of mans problems!

PS: You got caught breaking the law. It was a long time ago. Get over it!


That's what is wrong with society in general today and not just as it relates to radio operations. All too often people get hell bent on breaking rules they don't agree with instead of trying to change them. They also look for someone else to blame when they get caught breaking those rules. It's all about taking responsibility for one's own actions and having respect for others.[/QUOTE]

i'm well over it,
its not the getting caught that pisses me off,that was a fair cop,i knew the law,disagreed with it and flouted it,responsibility is something i always take/took even at 16 and younger.i through ignorance caused interference,something i've learned to avoid since and paid the price for that ignorance.sometimes in life you have to take risks,they don't always work out but as long as you learn from them you gained something

its the downright hypocrisy that the f@ckers who caught me openly flout the law now,and get away with it with the blessing of a government dept who are supposed to enforce laws who defends them to the hilt despite overwhelming proof against them for the laws they once enforced to the cost of anyone using the hf part of the spectrum.

if those that make and enforce laws actually practised what they preach then maybe more people wouldn't view laws with total contempt and maybe society wouldn't be the self centred place its become.
 
Don't assume too much. About the only thing i do agree with you on is the 'dumming down' part. The only result of that is to get 'dumber' participants. Or, why not apply the same to a pilot's license, then everyone can have one, right? One's about as ridiculous as the other, it's just that one's a little more dangerous than the other? It's still stupid.
Icom, Kenwood, and Yaesu are not being shown any favoritism, they are following the rules. If someone else want's to compete in the same market they certainly can. All they have to do is follow the same rules. There have certainly been a few that have. Can't afford to follow the rules? Then you don't appear to be ready to compete in the same market. The only hypocrisy would be in letting someone compete who can't follow the rules. Don't like the rules? Change them in the correct manner. Just don't like rules in general? You need an attitude adjustment, and in most cases, you'll get one. You won't like that either.
- 'Doc
 
Don't assume too much. About the only thing i do agree with you on is the 'dumming down' part. The only result of that is to get 'dumber' participants. Or, why not apply the same to a pilot's license, then everyone can have one, right? One's about as ridiculous as the other, it's just that one's a little more dangerous than the other? It's still stupid.
Icom, Kenwood, and Yaesu are not being shown any favoritism, they are following the rules. If someone else want's to compete in the same market they certainly can. All they have to do is follow the same rules. There have certainly been a few that have. Can't afford to follow the rules? Then you don't appear to be ready to compete in the same market. The only hypocrisy would be in letting someone compete who can't follow the rules. Don't like the rules? Change them in the correct manner. Just don't like rules in general? You need an attitude adjustment, and in most cases, you'll get one. You won't like that either.
- 'Doc


This is where you are wrong. Fact is that the only reason the FCC cares about the Ranger 10 meter radios is because they are cheaper than Kenwood, Yaesu and ICOM. If all radios were the same price, you would find all freebanders using Kenwoods, ICOMs and Yaesu radios. It is not a question of who is following the rules and who is not, it is the FCC focusing on the most popular radios.

The reason there is confusion over the legality of the radios is because the rules are so poorly drafted that there are numerous loopholes in the regulations. The FCC does not want to close the loopholes, because the people who would be the ones sponsoring closure are also some of the ones who want to exploit the loopholes. The FCC could surely make a rule that no radio, whether a Ranger or Kenwood, can be modifiable to work out of band. They don't. The ARRL would be against it and so would many of the people in the FCC, especially those holding Amateur licenses. Incidentally, the FCC did debate, internally, adopting such a rule but decided against it.

The problem with the original post is that it makes as assumption that is incorrect. Kenwood, ICOM and Yaesu are legal, even though modifiable, as are Ranger radios. From what I see, some Magnums and the Stryker radios are not.

The rules define a CB radio as one intended for operation on the CB. This ambiguity in the rules has caused this ongoing debate. Whose intent governs? Manufacturers? Retailers? End users?

In 1994(?) the FCC fined HRO for selling Kenwood radios that were easily modifiable to transmit on marine bands. At that time the FCC based intent on marketing. Was the radio marketed as an Amateur or as a marine? If a marine radio, it had to be type accepted (certificated) for marine. If an Amateur radio, it did not need certification. The FCC was forced to drop the fine in the face of Kenwood's argument that capability does not equal intent. Just because a radio is capable of transmitting on a particular band does not mean it is intended for that band.

In response to the Kenwood lose, the FCC issued a public notice in 1996 stating that if a radio was capable of easily being modified to work out of band it would be presumed it was intended to work on those bands. The FCC did not follow the Administrative Procedures Act in its attempt to change the rules, and the Public Notice is probably not enforceable. Further the FCC did not define what is considered easily modifiable, but the general counsel did in a letter. The courts have adopted that definition, and a radio which can be modified to work out of band by connecting a jumper or throwing a switch will probably be considered to be easily modifiable.

After the letter was issued by the general counsel, all Ranger radios have been modified such that they cannot be modified without using tools of some kind. That is why Ranger has won the case brought challenging the Galaxy radios and the case challenging the Connex radios. Its also why they will win the case against eBay. Modern Kenwoods, ICOMs and Yaesu radios all need some kind of tool, such as a soldering iron, to modify them. Some Magnums and Stykers can, to my understanding be modified to work on CB by changing jumper settings. Those radios will probably be found to be illegal if the FCC challenges it in court.

Amateur HF transmitters do not need to be certificated to be legal. Kenwoods, Yaesu, ICOMS do not have a certificate, other than a Part 15 certification. That certification is for the receiver, not the transmitter.

There is no prohibition in the rules against modifying any radio, or even building an Amateur radio that is open, despite the lack of an Amateur license. There is only a prohibition on transmitting on frequencies that require the use of certificated equipment or having a license to transmit on those frequencies. I know of some FCC agents that use modified ICOMS radios to "listen" to CB channels. (the Bill Clinton defense). There may be a prohibition on selling a modified radio, depending on who you ask at the FCC.

If you are a dealer in doubt, sell unmodified Ranger radios. Ranger has always defended dealers cited for selling unmodified Ranger radios.
 
Because hams don't get caught operating on restricted frequencies (other than 11m) with Kenwood / Icom / Yaesu radios.

While CBers get busted frequently operating on 10m/12m without a proper license, or using illegal power on 11m with these "export" radios.

With that being said, if you'll notice, the RCI5054 6m radio, which is pretty much identical to the 2950/2970, is legal for sale in the USA.

While the 2950/2970, are NOT legal for sale.

Speaking of, I need a 2950 for my CRX HF. I want a 10m rig while I drive, but I don't want to lose 11m capabilities for road info. :D

-Richard-
 
i think it more "intended end user " than "easily modified" even tho i know the law say easily modified.....

its all in the intended market etc....

to quote myself from an earlier thread...........

(toaster comparison in 5..4..3..2..1.......

if i want to i can modify my toaster to transmit on 10M and it is "legal" to both posess AND use on the amature bands....

i could even sell my toatser to a fellow ham for him to use......

however if i start manufacturing my "ham radio"/toasters by the thousands and have them marketed towards the 11M crowd by adding echo,roger beeps,a "whatever you do don't plug sourdough into toaster slot A since then this toaster would transmit out of band" type of disclaimers ,marketing in truckstops <not ripping on truckdrivers here...im a truckdriver myself> etc etc then the FCC may very well ban my "toasters"

HOWEVER as the FCC will tell you it is STILL legal for a HAM to use my "toaster" on the amaure bands for which he <or she> is licensed......EVEN tho it is ILLEGAL to sell my toasters in the US

make sense??

nobody really cares about people running power etc on 11M HOWEVER when non-amatures invade the 10M bands with the attitude <and i quote here ...i personally heard this guy say this> "I bought this radio I can talk here if I want to" the we have a problem......

if you don't have a license you DO NOT belong on the ham bands......

if 11M operators would have stayed in the 27Mhz and down into the upper portion of 26 i seriously doubt there would be a problem

but some bad apples spoiled it for the bunch.........

we worked for that license and those are our bands.....

by trying to "loophole" the law galaxy etc shot themselves in the foot by putting 10M in these radios.......

if when you modified it for 11M it "turned off " 10M in the radio i dont think we would be having this conversation
 
FCC quote:
This clarification was added to explicitly foreclose the possibility of certification of dual use CB and amateur radios, see id., and thereby deter use by CB operators of frequencies allocated for amateur radio use. ":bdh:
 
the real reason is they have a vfo not preset frequencys 10k apart.
 
the real reason is they have a vfo not preset frequencys 10k apart.


Absolutely false. Modify an ICOM to open it up and try to sell it. The FCC claims that radio is illegal after modification and cannot be sold, whether it has a vfo or not.
 
A licensed radio amateur can sell a modified Icom (or any other modified or homebrew radio) to another licensed radio amateur with complete impunity. It's up to that ham to operate the modified radio within the limits of his license, and within the spectral purity limits set by FCC.
 
A licensed radio amateur can sell a modified Icom (or any other modified or homebrew radio) to another licensed radio amateur with complete impunity. It's up to that ham to operate the modified radio within the limits of his license, and within the spectral purity limits set by FCC.


This is not correct, according to the FCC. I think I posted a deposition transcript before regarding this. The FCC's position is that if any amateur radio is modified, the person modifying it becomes a "manufacturer" and is responsible for getting the radio certified before selling it, if the radio now transmits on a service that requires FCC certification. Here is a portion of the testimony of an "expert" for the FCC.

20 Q And then, it is your understanding that
21 if he modified the ICOM and it was now capable of

58


1 transmitting on CB, the regulations prohibit him
2 from selling that radio; is that correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Before he could sell it, he would have
5 to get it certified for every service it was
6 capable of transmitting on; right?
7 A Yes.

The basis of the FCC's position is found at 47 C.F.R. 2.909 which provides as follows: Subpart J Equipment Authorization Procedures - The following parties are responsible for the compliance of radio frequency equipment with the applicable standards: … If subsequent to manufacture and importation, the radio frequency equipment is modified by any party not working under the authority of the responsible party, the party performing the modification becomes the new responsible party.
 
A licensed radio amateur can sell a modified Icom (or any other modified or homebrew radio) to another licensed radio amateur with complete impunity. It's up to that ham to operate the modified radio within the limits of his license, and within the spectral purity limits set by FCC.

99 percent of ham radios offered on ebay are sold with no regard to whether the buyer is licensed or not so ebay is in violation of fcc rules and regs buy allowing ham radios to be sold without verification of the buyers licensing.
 

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