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Help tuning 5/8 wave

cjruger

Active Member
Aug 13, 2012
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Im playing with a hombrew 5/8. Just put it up, lenght is about23'. I know its too long for 5/8 in 11 meters. However its a perfect swr up at 29.5 mhz, its like 2.5 in mid 11 meter band. . If its too llong for 5/8 wave how is swr better at higher freq? Is it because im aproaching .64 wave and im too short? Im stumped
I have a coil for a match, can moving the tap point affect where swr is best in MHz? If i have perfect swr at higher freq, is it just a matter of radiator length or can tap point on coil affect where in the band swr is best likt the radiator length
 
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well in free space the target length would be around 21.33 feet... however depending on the materials used and the diameter i could need to be longer or shorter...

not sure how you are matching it... I am assuming you are going from the center conductor of the coax to the radiator, and matching it to 3/4 wave...
so this antenna is basically a 5/8 wave radiator base loaded to 3/4 wave... so in this matching method the coil is functioning as a loading coil...


If that is the case then shorten he antenna to around 20.5-21.5 feet and move the tap point up or down and all around on the antenna until you get an appropriate match

This is how I match my 112" bug catcher on 6m, because the antenna is far to long for a 1/4 wave match

if you go with a smaller coil instead of a larger loop the process is still pretty much the same, just adjust it until it matches up... and antenna ANALyzer work make quick work of this
 
The first question is how are you making connections with this antenna? Center of coax to vertical element directly and braid to radials? Or are you using an inductive connection with a coil between vertical element and radials?
If the first instance it will never show an SWR close to adequate, usually much higher than that. A 5/8 wave antenna doesn't have an input impedance of 50 ohms or close to it without help from an impedance matching device of some kind (neither does a .64 wave antenna).
There are no 'exact' numbers for a 5/8 wave antenna without taking lots of things into account, radiator size(s), height above ground, what's near it, and the color of sox you are wearing at the time. There are ranges of lengths that will get you close, but no exact figure. That's part of what that 'tuning' is all about.
Another nasty fact is that SWR is a lousy indication of how well an antenna is tuned, it only pertains to impedance matching. SWR has nothing to do with resonance, which is the 'other' part of tuning an antenna.
So, tell us about your home made antenna and how you've got it put together.
- 'Doc
 
Here is some pics, using a coil to match. What i dont get is it seems too long already at 23' yet it has perfect swr at 29 mhz. I have no tuner, so swr is all i have to go by. If i lengthen it 8 more inches swr at 11 meters goes down to 1:5 from 2.5. I cant make it longer, i need more material. The radiator is 1/2" alum rod half way up the down to 3/16 solid alum rod rest of the way up.

What is stumping me is that perfect swr is up at 29mhz and making it longer makes 27.205 mghz get better. Shouldent it be reverse of that?

Oh and i had it on the ground for testing with copper wire for radials, 3 of them. If i acheived perfect swr at 29 mhz, is it still possible to acheive it at 27 mhz?

AF7F14DA-2D8D-404D-92DA-4783A1540920-11933-00000B016D78264C_zps60d05fba.jpg

94C59BDA-8AB6-4F7C-AC39-ECE1173E83AB-11933-00000B01662CBF3B_zps9c5fb53d.jpg
 
maybe try it like the sirio tornado, and don't connect the coil to ground?

http://www.worldwidedx.com/cb-antennas/158611-sirio-tornado-coil.html

vkrules:

Don't sweat it . There's more than one way to match a 5/8th .Looking at the pic I'd say it is a LC network, the capacitance provided by the way the coil is constructed around the element

shockwave:

There is no trick or hidden parts to make the coil work without it being grounded. All that is required to raise the 50 ohm cable impedance to the 5/8 waves much higher impedance is a series coil. The extra part is when they add the shunt coil to ground for lightning protection. The Tornado type of matching coil is used in just about every mono band 2 meter 5/8 wave mobile antenna
 
Whatever is going on here is the same thing I'm experiencing with my Eznec model for the New Penetrator 500. The right dimensions, about 22.5' feet for the antenna at 27.205, is showing to be way too short, and the frequency ends up in the 29-30 meg area when made longer to about 23' to 24' feet.

IMO, this has little to do with being near .64 wave or not, it has to be that the beta, in my case, is just not correct for the capacitance needed to zero out the inductive long length of a 5/8 wave radiator.

We may be able to tweak out a bit more gain in a 5/8 wave radiator setup by lengthening the radiator to an electrical .64 wavelength, but that is not the same as going from 27 megs to 28 megs.

IMO, 5/8 vs .64 makes very little if any difference in higher frequencies anyway. Doing so may be important at very low frequencies, with ground mounted very tall antennas operating in gain areas of less than 2 dbs where the gain needs to be stretch out every bit of gain possible, but IMO 11 meters is quite different.

Just my opinion though.
 
Have you tried tapping that coil in other places?
- 'Doc

Exactly!!

Tap that coil at 4 or 5 turns down from the vertical element.

Once you get it resonant at the freq of your choice then start decreasing the size of the vertical element until you achieve the settings u want.
 
My method is to set the vertical radiator length where it belongs to be typically resonant on 11 meters for a 5/8 wave antenna. It is then that I tap the coil to achieve a match.

Resonance is primarily a matter of length no matter where it is mounted, so get that where it belongs before going on to the tap point. When I have used a coil of similar shape, diameter, and mounting location on a 5/8 vertical I have found the tap point to be somewhere in the 4th or 5th wrap, as has been suggested.

As for why you are seeing a low SWR at 29 Mhz I would venture that you might also see a low SWR much lower than 27 Mhz, too. My experience is that an SWR curve is not a continuous curve or else it would eventually be a circle. Instead, it is a series of curves up and down with lows and highs at different points on the frequencies along a certain number of frequencies. You usually won't see this with an SWR meter because the radio used to measure SWR with won't operate except on a finite number of frequencies. Analyzers see more. SO . . . what you are seeing at 29 Mhz is a low SWR of an antenna that is not resonant there. Well below 27 Mhz there will be another low SWR dip and the antenna will be closer to resonance there.

My advice is to shorten the antenna length somewhere in the 21.5' to 22.5' range and begin to tune with your tap on the coil. If the SWR doesn't go low enough with tap placement only, when you get really close to a good SWR it is possible to tweak the match by very slight adjustments of the radiator length. Major adjustments of the radiator length at this point is, IMO, an indication of antenna design flaws. These can be in the matching network, the radials design, or shorting issues at the wrong place between the coax conductors.

Perhaps it is a fluke, but when I have used as few as 5 - 6 wraps on a coil I needed it to be around 4.5" - 5" diameter to work well, and when it had a lesser diameter, say 3" - 3.5", it required around 9 wraps to create a good match.
Git ur dun.
 
Im Misfit on CB and 242 on SSB. Hope to DX ya sometime. I finally got my SPT-500 working like it should thanks to everyone here for the info!
 
I went 22.6 ft on my Hygain SPT-500 with my tophats bent at a 45. Also I had to shorten my vertical under the radials by 3/4" because my vertical was broke where it attached to the base. To my surprise im 1.2 - 1.5 on my SWR now. Im still a little short as im 1.5 on channel 1 and 1.2 around 27.185 but thats OK with me most my work is channels 19-38. Made some local contacts 30+ miles on DSB even! This is barefoot, all my linears are pooped out atm. Im about the magical 36ft to the top of my antenna now. Hope to do some SSB in the next couple days to get a idea of my range there. This spring/summer I should be about 46ft once I get my tower on the roof...
 
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I went 22.6 ft on my Hygain SPT-500 with my tophats bent at a 45. Also I had to shorten my vertical under the radials by 3/4" because my vertical was broke where it attached to the base. To my surprise im 1.2 - 1.5 on my SWR now. Im still a little short as im 1.5 on channel 1 and 1.2 around 27.185 but thats OK with me most my work is channels 19-38. Made some local contacts 30+ miles on DSB even! This is barefoot, all my linears are pooped out atm. Im about the magical 36ft to the top of my antenna now. Hope to do some SSB in the next couple days to get a idea of my range there. This spring/summer I should be about 46ft once I get my tower on the roof...
Finally someone who does it right.

Two thumbs up

Raise it to 41' at the radials and you should see the SWR drop and performance skyrocket.

On the homebrew 5/8, 268" of radiator and 9' horizontal radial(s) then tap your coil about 1/3 up from the bottom.
 

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