Retailers Breakin the Law?

[bandaid kid]

One minor thing. The people through their representatives determine the law. The Court's determine if the law that the people want is Constitutional. The executive branch enforces the laws.

Though it sometimes acts like it does, the FCC does not have lawmaking power. Remember, that just because the FCC, or even your local police department, says that something is legal or not, does not make it so. Only the Court system can determine if what you did was legal or illegal.

Like it or not, how many times have the police, and the DA told the public on TV that what someone was doing was illegal, filed charges, and than lost in court, i,e. OJ Simpson, Michael Jackson. A phone call to law enforcement is not the way to find out if something is illegal or not, because they are frequently wrong.

Congress passes enabling legislation that allows regulatory agencies the power to make rules and requlations to carry out the jobs they are given by the law which Congress passes.

The FCC's jurisdiction is contained in the Communications Act of 1934 as amanded. Those are the things that the FCC enforces and it does have the authority to make rules and regulations in order to carry out the job. All regulatory agencies have Congessional authority to make these rules and regulations and it's usually found in the original law that created these agencies.

The FCC can make rules and regulations. Congress gave permission for it to do so in the law that created it. The rules have the force of law soley due to this permission from Congress. Therefore, the regulations have legal standing that has been uphild by court actions.

Please excuse typos and funny sentence structure, I'm having trouble reading the screen.

 

[C W Morse]

o

THANK you! I failed to do it because we were embroiled in the legality of the "10 Meter" radios thread.

BTW, one of the things that can cause a letter about operating out of band is where one station is transmitting a CQ close to the band edges. He is legal to operate in this area due to his higher privileges. Another station with lower privileges forgets that the bandwidth of his signal may exceed the legal limits and answers the other station. He splatters over into.....say, Extra and BAM! He gets a letter about operating out of band. Sometimes (not always) it is unintentional, sometimes not. This kind of letter is because of a "technical violation". However, if a Technician licensee transmits on 7255
KHZ, then it is obvious that he likely knows he is up to mischief!

73

CWM

 

[chipotle]

Your point about overlap among the three branches of government is well taken, and the subject of a Constitutional Law School test class at some time or another. The Supreme Court has debated the issue of just how much "law making" Authority the legislative branch can have without violating the Constitution.

While it is true that even courts make laws, case law, all day long, but the Court's have no Constiutional law making authority. Even local law enforcement are enabled by the lawmakers to make reguations to carry out the laws. It was one local law enforcement that originally decided that it was illegal to be drunk in a car as a passenger becuase a car is a public place, and you are thereofre drunk in public. The legislatures did not make this law, but the courts upheld it.

Conversely, even Congress can appoint special prosecutors to enforce the law but congress has no Constitutional law enforcement authority. Understood.

The FCC decides what radios violate the Code, and to that extent, they are "making laws" that outlaw certain radios. The FCC has no direct law making authority, however. They have authority only to enforce laws.

But There is no Federal Code drafted by the FCC. CFR 47 was not drafted by the FCC. Neither was Part 97. I dare you to name one law that the FCC drafted, just one. Give me the citation and I will post the law here here.

Good debate.

 

[bandaid kid]

Your point about overlap among the three branches of government is well taken, and the subject of a Constitutional Law School test class at some time or another. The Supreme Court has debated the issue of just how much "law making" Authority the legislative branch can have without violating the Constitution.

While it is true that even courts make laws, case law, all day long, but the Court's have no Constiutional law making authority. Even local law enforcement are enabled by the lawmakers to make reguations to carry out the laws. It was one local law enforcement that originally decided that it was illegal to be drunk in a car as a passenger becuase a car is a public place, and you are thereofre drunk in public. The legislatures did not make this law, but the courts upheld it.

Conversely, even Congress can appoint special prosecutors to enforce the law but congress has no Constitutional law enforcement authority. Understood.

The FCC decides what radios violate the Code, and to that extent, they are "making laws" that outlaw certain radios. The FCC has no direct law making authority, however. They have authority only to enforce laws.

But There is no Federal Code drafted by the FCC. CFR 47 was not drafted by the FCC. Neither was Part 97. I dare you to name one law that the FCC drafted, just one. Give me the citation and I will post the law here here.


Good debate.

I have been trying to download the Comm Act of 34 to read it and I cannot seem to do so.

But Congress passed the law and told the FCC to regulate wireless and wireline communications and when an agency is created to "requlate" something it does so by making rules and regulations and enforces those. If Congress did not do so, all its time would be taken up with rules and regulations of hundreds of all sorts of stuff by dozens of regulatory agencies and nothing else could be done.

So Congress tells the FCC to regulate, and it does so by writing rules and regulations. Those have the ways FCC regulateds stuff. They are not laws, but do have the same enforcablilty as laws. FCC makes them stick by fining, threatening to take licenses away, taking them away, confinscating equipment, and doing so when needed, by listing what is okay and what is not okay.

I obey the rules and regulations regarding amateur radio because I do not wish to lose my license or having stuff siezed or paying a fine. Or any other penalty the FCC could bring against me.

Yes, the FCC does not write laws. It writes rules and regulations and it enforces those. There is ample precedence to back them up...

73

 

[C W Morse]

o

Bandaid kid,

Excellent post! In that muddle of laws, rules, and regulations is the reason for said rules to start with. Good, sound reasons why they were established from experience and precedent. If it weren't for those rules, it could get so NO one could use a two-way radio. CB radio in its present form will NEVER get squat so far as power and "channels" is concerned. But the CB hobbiests want Amateur radio to become CB and vice versa. Yet, all those things we read here about Mo' Powah, Mo' channels is contained within the Amateur license! CB radio is NOT supposed to be a hobby, and if FCC had stayed on top of it (maybe impossible back in 1974?), it wouldn't be. Those who want the additional advantages of "extra" channels (ham radio doesn't have "channels") need to learn a little more about how their operations can cause interference and learn to prevent it.

The issue of illegal operations is a hot topic within the Amateur service and CB alike. FCC isn't a perfect solution, but if the advocates of "opening" up this and "opening" up that really got their way, they would screaming bloody murder for someone to DO something! :evil: They themselves would be jammed and wouldn't understand what to do. CB radio is a self-destructive avocation when it is unregulated (ham radio is, too if allowed to run amuck!).
So what should be done?

1. Organize CB clubs again.

2. Establish objectives such as helping with "aid" walks and runs. Set up aid stations (water, rest, or 'bandaid' stops)

3. Visit nursing homes and show the residents your equipment.
They are always looking for something to do/see!

4. Establish a rapport with the local emergency (EOC) management. Volunteer to be victims in disaster practice exercises.

5. Appoint a publicity committee to liason with the local news outlets.

6. Shun "cutesy", immature lingo and encourage members to use plain-dress language. Present a professional appearance to the public at large.

7. Find material that shows how to handle formal messages, or develop a local format.

8. Show that your group has a mission and a purpose.

9. As members join, they may come from adjoining towns. As they do, try to establish "Auxiliary" groups that can grow into
self-sustaining clubs.

10. Sponsor "pig pickin's", barbecues, luncheons, or dances to raise funds both for the club and local charities.

It will give you a focus and show the public that you are a serious organization. As this "CB Auxiliary" takes hold, perhaps,
people begin to hear about what you are doing. Clubs begin to form in other cities, etc. Who knows? Then CB becomes a force to be reckoned with, and, thus, can ask for "Mo' this, and Mo' that!

There IS a way that CB could be taken seriously, but it will have to come from within! It is highly unlikely that CB will get more channels above or below the regular 40. It will not get more watts. To the authorities, CB is DEAD--or they WISH it was. One way to "clean up" CB is to have members sign a pledge to abide by nominal, reasonable behaviors and make it worthwhile by providing certain incentives. People are "joiners" and they like to be in 'THE' Group! In any case, CB has to clean up from within. The users themselves have to stop violating existing law and/or trying ways to defeat it. They will have to make it "uncool" to use "extree" channels, not a good thing to "stomp mudducks". Bad practice to clip audio circuits.
Wrong to use a "footwarmer". All these things have given CB a bad name in the public eye and in the eyes of hams and civilian emergency authorities.

The other alternative is the ham license that will give one all the "extree" channels he can use! He still must obey Part 97, but what you get in return is FAR and away better!

73

CWM

 

[CDX126]

Great post CW. I agree 100%. I know back home in Massachusetts and Rhode Island, there are alot of CB Clubs still. One of them is on the USS Massachusetts. They get together once a month and come up with some kind of event. One of the most popular is the Coffee Break which they hold every Holiday at the rest areas. They offer travelers coffee and refreshments, free of charge. They ask for donations but they aren't manditory. I for one would like to see more of this from the CB community. Thanks for the post, CDX126

 

[bandaid kid]

I won't get into which service is "better" or more "legal." Completely different cultures with completely different technologies and goals. They're not alike. CB is hobby for many, many people but still has personal uses as between family members and various groups. My position here is that millions of people use CB as it was intended to be used. The people you make fun of are in the minority.

I taught three American Red Cross Advanced First Aid classes to members of one CB club. They were normal everyday people who just used radios to communicate and they wanted to be able to stop and assist at accidents prior to EMS getting there. They sere seriuos students and each of them just wanted to give help when needed. Out of 90 some people, only one person turned out to be a flake and he was edged-out of the club. A number of club members were present at some accidents, called for help, got well-equipped first-aid kets and blankets out, and took control. I nominated 3 of them for Red Cross awards.

None of the CBers I taught behaved the way you seem to think they behave. They gave me a RS CB base radio and I did more listening than talking. But then there was the time I was on the road and came across a very serious accident and no phone nearby. So I got a mobile. Didn't talk on it aside from calling for help whenever I came across an emergency.

The club members also made part 95 of importance and didn't tolerate stupidity on the air. This was during the time that licenses were required and no one talked to a known station without a license. I filled out the form that came with the radio from the club. KEN-1621.

When I had to stop driving due to failing eyesight, CB went with it and I eventually got into ham radio. They've each got their good points and bad pointes. Neither is perfect. There are idiots on both bands but all-in-all, they're both okay.

73

 

[C W Morse]

Great post CW. I agree 100%. I know back home in Massachusetts and Rhode Island, there are alot of CB Clubs still. One of them is on the USS Massachusetts. They get together once a month and come up with some kind of event. One of the most popular is the Coffee Break which they hold every Holiday at the rest areas. They offer travelers coffee and refreshments, free of charge. They ask for donations but they aren't manditory. I for one would like to see more of this from the CB community. Thanks for the post, CDX126

Sadly, I haven't seen a Coffee Break in years. I wish the folks around here would do it. These days a "break" means one of those keydown events! Unfortunately, a lot of the folks around here DO misbehave. Having a linear amp is a mark of "courage". Talking over stations is a symbol of "manhood", and trying to block someone out is routine. You must have "extra" channels, or you're a wuss! And all the good things being done by CBers will never erase the image it has. It only takes one bad impression to poison the well for everybody! I didn't make this up, nor am I exaggerating when I imitate CB lingo. Indeed, this "hick" persona seems to be what is sought after what with all the 'cutesy' sayings and pseudo-southern accent. That's why I was advocating that folks try to spread the GOOD things all over the country. Find a model club and pattern your on-air activities and habits after them.
Maybe it will become the norm!

CWM

 

[C2]

So how does this fit in with the 150DX down at the local retailer? I found out that sales are doing better than the "CBs" they have on the shelf. They don't have the 200DX, yet.

 

[C W Morse]

o

Which retailers? FCC already has warned one shop about selling them. :shock: If the retailers continue to sell them, they will get nailed eventually.


CWM

 

[Moleculo]

Which retailers? How about every online stereo and sound company. How about two of the biggest online retail companies: Amazon.com stocks and sells them online and so does Buy.com. When even "respectable" retailers don't know the difference, then you can't blame them. I seriously doubt Amazon.com has read any of the FCC reg's on radio marketing. The FCC does not have the manpower or financial resources to go after all these retailers. Obviously Cobra doesn't feel like the FCC is a threat either, or they would not be so bold in their production and marketing strategy.

 

[CDX126]

Why find a CB Club? Why not start one. Most peaople like to join things. If they spread the word to thier friends before to long you will have members. It takes someone with some basic office knowledge to organize. then start doing events, public relations, exepitions etc. within a years time they could have a model CB Club and eventually it will spread. It has to start locally, not like here with the CDX Club. This is a different story. Anyway enough said.

 

[Moleculo]

One more thought:

When even the most respectable and honest retailers (Amazon.com) are marketing illegal radios, the fault lies solely on the FCC. If it wasn't for the vagueries in the regulations (as Ranger has proven in court) Cobra wouldn't be able to exploit them, and Amazon.com wouldn't be at risk for marketing products that Cobra Electronics provides.

Another issue is that government cannot regulate market demand or stipulate what is "right" and "wrong". Clearly when Cobra Electronics is selling more export radios than amateur radios sold by Icom, Yaesu, and Kenwood, then the market does not agree with the present government regulation. This economic principle has been proven over and over again (anyone remember prohibition??) The ability for Cobra Electronics to market and sell an illegal radio at will with great success through every retailer that wishes to carry their product is really no different than our founding fathers who decided to thumb their noses at taxation principles they did not agree with and dump a boat load of tea into the harbor. It's really not something we should all get excited about, but understand that sometimes, it's the way things are done around here.

 

[C W Morse]

One more thought:

When even the most respectable and honest retailers (Amazon.com) are marketing illegal radios, the fault lies solely on the FCC. If it wasn't for the vagueries in the regulations (as Ranger has proven in court) Cobra wouldn't be able to exploit them, and Amazon.com wouldn't be at risk for marketing products that Cobra Electronics provides.

Another issue is that government cannot regulate market demand or stipulate what is "right" and "wrong". Clearly when Cobra Electronics is selling more export radios than amateur radios sold by Icom, Yaesu, and Kenwood, then the market does not agree with the present government regulation. This economic principle has been proven over and over again (anyone remember prohibition??) The ability for Cobra Electronics to market and sell an illegal radio at will with great success through every retailer that wishes to carry their product is really no different than our founding fathers who decided to thumb their noses at taxation principles they did not agree with and dump a boat load of tea into the harbor. It's really not something we should all get excited about, but understand that sometimes, it's the way things are done around here.

So what you have done? As discussed in other threads, open the flood gates wide so that those of us downstream to have to put up with the sh$$?

What is sad is that our American society is so "me" oriented that nothing else matters. When a "majority" (read "MOB") refuses to recognize legitimate rule of law--even when that law seeks to administer regulations fairly for ALL, we are in serious trouble. And, IHMO, headed for mediocrity and destruction. When the ONLY thing that matters is $$, we are blinded by greed and avarice--what *I* want and the h$$$ with anyone else----, we are soon to be relegated to oblivion! :shock: It was good while it lasted. :roll:

CWM

 

[Moleculo]

So what you have done? As discussed in other threads, open the flood gates wide so that those of us downstream to have to put up with the sh$$? ... When a "majority" (read "MOB") refuses to recognize legitimate rule of law--even when that law seeks to administer regulations fairly for ALL, we are in serious trouble.

When "those of us downstream" are the minority on this subject, then we eventually lose unless a better alternative arises. That's the way a democracy (or republic, in this case) works. A democratic government that is also has a capitalism economy is based on what the majority wants, regardless of what its' government regulates. In this type of system, majority speaks in two basic ways: by voting, and by how it spends it's dollars (the third is by revolution). So on this topic, it appears clearly that the majority of people affected are speaking with their dollar. The minority affected can cry about that all they want, but it doesn't change how things work within this system.

What have *I* done? Pay attention VERY closely and observe what is going on around you. I am an extra class ham. Do you have ANY idea how many people that I have encouraged and helped get their ticket and start in ham radio because of this forum and chatroom? Do you have ANY idea how many people that were just starting out that I have helped get started in either CB or Ham radio? I have never browbeaten anyone about their radio practice or preached about what is illegal or legal or what people should or shouldn't do. All that does is turn people off from the hobby. But rather, by trying to be friendly, helpful, instruct on good operating practices, and engage in some meaningful discussions, more people than I can remember have decided to get into ham radio because of my personal actions. Many move on and no longer visit here; some stick around. Many are perfectly happy using CB, GMRS, or FRS and that's great because it still shows interest in radio. So what I've done is to try a different approach at promoting the hobby. So far I'm proving it works, as many here can attest to.