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Should I say you bet I can do that?

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OldTech03

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I received a call last night just before turning in for the night it was a customer of mine that had me fix up one of his cobra 29LTD's the short story is he wanted to send the radio back to me he said the radio was working fine but wondered if he would benefit from me making it produce 250 or 300 Percent Modulation as he had seen on YouTube video. I'm not going to answer that I'm going to do as I would have 49 years ago when I was standing in front of 28 wanna-be technicians. So Classroom can any of you tell me "Honestly" why this is a "Good" or "Bad" idea? This has to do with Honesty so I'm told! so please you will not hurt my feelings tell me what you would tell one of your customers if you work on radios asked to do this.


 
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Please answer this first. Is there such a thing as 300% modulation? If there is it would be so distorted it would probably be useless anyway even at a distance. I believe it would be all splatter and distortion.
 
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Please answer this first. Is there such a thing as 300% modulation? If there is it would be so distorted it would probably be useless anyway even at a distance. I believe it would be all splatter and distortion.
Well after I get more response from those smarter than me. I will give my opinion.
 
Well after I get more response from those smarter than me. I will give my opinion.
It is possible. If you want to hunt the parts down. I have a S45HP with the topgun modulator and it is a beast. Set the RF Power to two watts and modulate with peaks at 90 watts. Clean and clear un-distorted. It is a process know as negative peak suppression. I got in to a discussion on this board and I was of the opinion the was nothing over 100% modulation.
I got schooled.
 
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Quote Exitthirteen"
Here's a picture to illustrate what CK is referring to. Granted, this is a little extreme, as the positive peaks are in excess of 150%. However, the negative peaks are around 100% with no clipping or unusual waveform. It IS possible to achieve over 100% modulation.

This first pic is a carrier of 2 watts, no modulation.

IMG_20130331_151009_027_zps54c55bb0.jpg


The 2nd pic is the carrier modulated.

IMG_20130331_151238_862_zpsff46b6bd.jpg


This was done on a President Madison with the MB8719 SSB chassis. No modulation limiters were removed, and I maintained full adjustability of the AMC circuit. This is a form of asymmetrical modulation.
Exitthirteen end quote."


The radio I have has what is called "Top Gun Modulator."
 
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It has been proven so many times (Not sure any of us can count that high) that anything over 100% Modulation is Distortion/Splatter A 4 watt Carrier should swing to 8 watts if it is Truly 100% Modulated so that makes Swing Kits BAD. I know some love swing kits but Facts are still Facts even when we don't like them. For example:My ICOM PW-1 Solid State Amplifier keys 500 watts & when I speak into the microphone I get 1 Kilowatt of output power which by the Laws of Physics which don't lie I have 100% Modulation which as good as it gets. I am sure there will be plenty who don't agree but that is OK with me & this is a discussion group. Putting out more signal is only good if that signal is on the frequency that you are using or it is wasted & causing someone else an issue which is bad. Myself I strive to get all of my signal out on one frequency & that is where I am talking & the more I do that the better everyone is. This is why most CB Amplifiers are Dirty on the air & many Amateur Radio amplifiers as well. On SSB it is a totally different story since there is no carrier but on AM it is very important. Put your signal on a scope or look at it on someone else's band scope & see just how pure it is & how wide it is on the band you are on & other bands such as the 6 meter band where a lot of splattered signals end up wasted.

SIX-=SHOOTER
 
It has been proven so many times (Not sure any of us can count that high) that anything over 100% Modulation is Distortion/Splatter.

SIX-=SHOOTER

Well no not exactly. If the negative peaks are maintained at 100% it does not matter how high the positive peaks are. Commercial AM broadcast stations consistently run 120% positive peak modulation while maintaining 100% negative and there is no distortion. Been there done it when I was in broadcasting. It is the negative peaks that cut the carrier off resulting in distortion.
 
It's been done without distortion. It's totally useless though.
Why would it be useless? I thought being heard was the objective on radio.
A radio that is properly modulated using asymmetrical you could not tell the difference except it would be louder. Every time I use my S45HP people want to buy it. Not running any watts except what is was built with.
 
Tell them this...

Show me a radio that can actually hear 300% modulation - and I'll tune yours to it.

He may balk at the idea - look at him squarely between the eyes and tell him to make his claim provable you need a radio that "hears" the 300% modulation - not just some of the modulation - but all 300% of it.

Because it'll be distorted in the AM receiver - period - you can get some signal from low level carrier and even an IF image but not from sheer modulation - that is Dual Sideband Suppressed Carrier endeavor - and you need a carrier power signal dead power, weakly present or modulated - to even hear it without sounding like you're on sideband. or even FM - that's been a debate for years.

Now if he says I can hear them clearly - then tell him that "modulation" requires a carrier to decode that information in another receiver - whether that receiver makes it (BFO) or not (AM Detector).

Now, what you want is power envelope to develop 300% power in modulation ENVELOPE - meaning that the radio in question requires power above and beyond that which is available naturally in the radio. Means that the carrier will have to supplant the power in envelope to offset the modulation embedded in it else all you hear again is clipping in any typical AM receiver. There is simply not enough room or power that a typical CB can provide in AM carrier without further modification and additional power applied to make the 300% modulation possible.

Tell them, the typical 4:1 ratio of peak to carrier is needed to obtain and maintain all information - so the 300% requires that "4" to becomes 64 (4 cubed the 100% treated as a level of increase 4^3)

Now, in another thread, you can obtain 150% modulation easily enough by simply getting rid of the "mid point" carrier restriction and use supply rail power on the Collectors (or across Source to Drain) and let "mid point" be the actual 1/2 supply rail and by doing so, allows you to avoid the downward clipping distortion present in any other typical AM regulated radio. But in using this method, you have to operate components (A.K.A. - Solid State) that can tolerate the input power to the base / Gate as well has the Breakdown limits established by junction or construction (PN or Gate Substrate Oxide) and the power supply requirements - so unless he owns a vehicle with a 72 volt battery he can tap off of - forget the idea...

So yes, it's possible - but it'll cost them dearly.
 
Tell them this...

Show me a radio that can actually hear 300% modulation - and I'll tune yours to it.

He may balk at the idea - look at him squarely between the eyes and tell him to make his claim provable you need a radio that "hears" the 300% modulation - not just some of the modulation - but all 300% of it.

Because it'll be distorted in the AM receiver - period - you can get some signal from low level carrier and even an IF image but not from sheer modulation - that is Dual Sideband Suppressed Carrier endeavor - and you need a carrier power signal dead power, weakly present or modulated - to even hear it without sounding like you're on sideband. or even FM - that's been a debate for years.

Now if he says I can hear them clearly - then tell him that "modulation" requires a carrier to decode that information in another receiver - whether that receiver makes it (BFO) or not (AM Detector).

Now, what you want is power envelope to develop 300% power in modulation ENVELOPE - meaning that the radio in question requires power above and beyond that which is available naturally in the radio. Means that the carrier will have to supplant the power in envelope to offset the modulation embedded in it else all you hear again is clipping in any typical AM receiver. There is simply not enough room or power that a typical CB can provide in AM carrier without further modification and additional power applied to make the 300% modulation possible.

Tell them, the typical 4:1 ratio of peak to carrier is needed to obtain and maintain all information - so the 300% requires that "4" to becomes 64 (4 cubed the 100% treated as a level of increase 4^3)

Now, in another thread, you can obtain 150% modulation easily enough by simply getting rid of the "mid point" carrier restriction and use supply rail power on the Collectors (or across Source to Drain) and let "mid point" be the actual 1/2 supply rail and by doing so, allows you to avoid the downward clipping distortion present in any other typical AM regulated radio. But in using this method, you have to operate components (A.K.A. - Solid State) that can tolerate the input power to the base / Gate as well has the Breakdown limits established by junction or construction (PN or Gate Substrate Oxide) and the power supply requirements - so unless he owns a vehicle with a 72 volt battery he can tap off of - forget the idea...

So yes, it's possible - but it'll cost them dearly.

You are partially correct. The Positive peak is carrier with the audio on top, the side bands are carrier and sound combined.

You will not get 80 watt peaks with a radio that can develop 12 watts P.E.P..
My S45HP has the RFX75 installed on it from the factory.
 
Whoa! You guys aren't seeing how I'm trying to explain it to OT03 so he can explain that to his customers.

The issue of 300% deals with offset of mid-point of the component and it's envelope needs at least a RESERVE power capacity meaning that the MID POINT (Zero transition of phase) is adjusted higher DYNAMICALY to what is present at the collector or plate or Drain of the device.

You can't do that with a Bi-polar - you will exceed the Base voltage requirements - but if you had a bi-polar with this capability - the other link where Ex13 showed how to obtain 150% modulation - was thru adjustment of the mid-point - not the carrier power level which was fixed by the radio itself.

Once you remove the restriction of the fixed set mid-point - all other aspects can be altered dynamically by simply adjusting power level by using a Class D pulse mode or Modulation process (aka a power source of voltage and current matching equally to the input as a 4:1 ratio albeit at a 64:1 dynamic change rate) So as you change the 4:1 rate at the INPUT of the device - the output of the device is seeing a 64 to 1 - or 300% change of dynamic envelope power by either pulse Class D mode or linearly as a reserve pool of batteries able to supply the power.

You just have to think of this as 3-phase - but not as AC - as RF - but in applying this think of it in the DC ream of Neutral being ground - below ground (Negative) and above ground (Positive) - that is how the device will see itself as. RF would be in any single position along that Negative - Neutral - Positive realm - with Neutral being "earth".

We have 240 VAC present all the time in our homes and in some ways it is used for the purpose said above - to allow for the phase of current to move the power to provide work versus trying to obtain all the energy from just one side of it. (Pole to Neutral = 120V versus Pole to Neutral to Pole = 240V

So if you think of that process you can begin to see where it can go from this - the only problem lies in the dynamics of the input power to power available to be used at the output to obtain this type of asymmetry.

So to reiterate, review that Ex13 response to the 130% modulation thread - but in the meantime review also the use of neutral and respect of it towards Positive and Negative. But just remember the Neutral is earth ground and all other aspects are Vectors of energy in respect to it but in directions taking it to places not just positive but negative in the power realm - not just see it as cutoff.

The changing of mid-point from affixed reference to a dynamic one - is what I'm seeing this as.
 
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